MAY 4, 2011 9:08PM

Some Other Photos Not Released By The White House

Rate: 49 Flag

WARNING: THIS POST CONTAINS GRAPHIC IMAGERY

 

I guess Obama not releasing Bin Laden's death photos is a good thing.  It does seem, though, that for a nation at war we have a pretty weak stomach. For going on ten years now people have been dying and suffering grievous injury from our war on terror, or as Borat called it, our war of terror.  Maybe if more of us got to see what it looks like when someone is shot through the head, or severely burned by high explosives, or mutilated by shrapnel, we might finally, as a nation, ask some hard questions about why we are fighting in Central Asia and elsewhere.  Below are some photographs which, along with OBL's death pictures, most Americans don't want to see.

  

 

 

 

An Afghan victim of a NATO airstrike gone awry

 

And another one

 

And another

 

And another

 

And a couple more

 

And then there's this,  a photo which was passed around like a baseball card by some of our troops in Afghanistan. War is ugly, and it ruins everything it touches, and maybe we need to stop hiding from that ugliness and acknowledge our role in it.

 

 

 

 

free web stats

Your tags:

TIP:

Enter the amount, and click "Tip" to submit!
Recipient's email address:
Personal message (optional):

Your email address:

Comments

Type your comment below:
Osama's dead. Can we come home now?
Stilicho, you remind me of someone. Rate this post cocksucker!
We never think about the children when the bombs start dropping... and they pay the highest price.
Sobering, and I take your point, but would we even recognize OBL given the fact that his head probably exploded?
Pictures like these should be on the front page of all the newspapers, the Huffpost, big Salon, everywhere, and on the news programs 24/7.
I agree with You, Nanatehay, the wink is a dead giveaway.

I politely asked the c*cksucker, to desist, from posting on my blog, evermore, and to date, it has complied.

Thanks, for showing, the pictures, that need, be seen.

Too, many americans, watching "reality," TV, and too few, looking at pictures, like those You've, just, posted, which IS reality.

Get used to it, folks -- put away, your comic books, and watch as america, sinks, into the sea, faster than The Titanic.


-R-
Wasn't Stilicho a Goth or some other kind of Germanic barbarian bastard who worked for the Romans fighting other Goths and Vandals and Suevi and Gepids and what not but then was assassinated by rivals in the Imperial court? And now he won't rate my post!

I used to be a hawk on Afghanistan. Some days, when I ask myself what will happen after we withdraw, I still am. It does seem though that if we're going to stay there we ought to have a plan which might actually work, and at this point we don't have one. Look at Karzai, look at Pakistan, and tell me how with allies like them we are ever going to create a stable polity in Afghanistan.
You are a gutsy guy. This is rough stuff. Not for the meek.
And I like to see you commenting on your own "hawkish"
Afghanistan position. But if one voted for President Obama, they voted "hawkish on Afghanistan. You're not alone.
With Pakistan now becoming even more obviously a failed state, a failed nuclear state, is it not becoming obvious that Afghanistan has just been the parking place needed/desired for 94,000 troops if/when Pakistan implodes?
Stilicho, I read all eleven volumes of Durant's The Story of Civilization by the time was 15 and have been studying history ever since, so of course I know who Stilicho is, motherfucker.
AKA, there's some truth to the notion of "Afghanistan as staging area to invade Pakistan." Wasn't there a character in The Princess Bride who said never to get involved in a land war in Asia? Or maybe that was one of Truman's advisors, but either way, once you're there, you're gonna be there for a while; history tells us that if it tells us nothing else.
Inferiority complex? How does knowing I'm better read than most college boys I meet constitute an inferiority complex? Google and Wikipedia are the last resort of the terminally ignorant, and that goes double for the supposedly "educated." Kpffft.
rate, don't rate, rate, don't rate
waffling on this one- ok, rating it because you are you, and I like ya Nana, even when you are wrong.
Do you think that wiser minds than yours or mine haven't poured over this for generations? Yes, I agree, we should look at all the bodies and acknowledge the damage that comes from war, from our own responsibility in that war. But your ability to own your house and keep it, and be underemployed and still own a house comes from that same military might that you think is abused. If you cannot bring about change through words (and you can't- our level of income just has no voice) what is the alternative? violence? will you commit a terrorist crime against your own country? will you leave the safety of it? sell your home and pretty garden and give away the money to these children who were injured? go live in a less protected nation with ideals closer to your own?
It's easy to sit in a safe room, in a safe house, well fed with an internet connection and have ideals. Dunno about you, but I lose mine pretty quickly when hungry.
and hey, don't knock the Wiki source- it's got lots of good stuff in there!!
Americans have become a race of malevolent hyenas that are hand fed the blood of foreign nationals by the vile whores of CNN & FOX. Do not worry they will get what they have coming to them as their plastic Jesus told them “you reap what you sew” or as I say what go’s around comes around. The last Gallup poll said a full 17% of Americans know 9/11 was an inside job and at least half of those polled wanted Dubya and his dog Cheney questioned on the matter. For the moment we remain silent in the face of the corporate takeover of the media but things change my friend. What happens when the quarterly's come in in July and the S & P takes the worst nose dive in history because the economic super power Japan no longer exists? Japan is spewing 40 years of radioactive waste into air currents that once carried WWII balloon bombs right into the heartland of Americas pacific coast. The Kuroshio Current sweeps its radioactive waters at 3 miles an hour directly into Americas pacific shoreline adding new meaning to its ancient name: “current of death”. What happens when the bill comes due for Fukushima? And it will.
Julie, I think you're misunderstanding my point. I am not a hippy or a pacifist, nor someone who thinks we don't need a strong military. As I said in a comment earlier, I've been far more hawkish on Afghanistan than most OSers; as a matter of fact I've had discussions with people here who consider me a warmonger. All I'm saying is that war is ugly, for whatever the reasons it's waged, and we need to acknowledge that and look realistically at what it means when we kill people. If we can't be troubled by seeing OBL's shattered head then it's not very likely we'll ever ask the right questions about why we're in Afghanistan and what we need to do there to make the whole thing not be a senseless waste of time, blood, and treasure.
CA if it was anybody but you I would be insulted
Ooooh, this is some heavy truth man. Thanks for sharing
on that happy note :) I'm off to bed since 4am comes damn early.
I agree, we need to see what we do. Know the true cost of our wealth and security.
There seems to be some miscalculation about wealth and security here. The bulk of reports I've seen indicate the USA is less secure these days than when the adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan were initiated and the monstrous cancer of the Pentagon budget is gulping down all the things that made the country livable and the general economic situation does not paint a picture of a wealthy citizenship.
The thing is though, nana, that citizen-consumers have no problem dissociating psychologically from images such as these. They do so because they must.

As I see it, the only way to associate them psychologically with this is to require that they themselves serve in the armed forces or require that their own sons and daughters serve or other loved ones. Instead of luring only a tiny minority--many of them poor or otherwise disadvantaged looking for opportunity--into doing this for them.

Even that would be imperfect in armed forces that draw upon a broad spectrum of society. It is still that tiny minority that ends up in the shit. The majority are safely in the rear running computers or greasing equipment.

You get the idea. In any event there is no doubt in my mind that politicians feel freer politically to deploy a volunteer army. No doubt in my mind. That is why we now have one. That is why you cannot get your wish that you expressed in your first comment.
Jack, do you know Stilicho? Is your real name perchance Alaric? ;-)

Bluestocking, we need to figure out what we're doing in Afghanistan and why. One of Obama's campaign pledges which he kept is that he would double down in Afghanistan. To some extent he has done that, but though he's brought a more realistic approach to Central Asia than Bush ever did there are still serious questions about our Afghan policy.

Stilicho, you should never have messed with Rufinus...

Julie; exactly.

Jan, I watched a CIA official on Frontline last night say, on the one hand, our drone strikes in North Waziristan are a matter of kill or be killed, and on the other hand that the strikes have helped to create more of the very thing they're meant to eradicate, i.e., radicalized Islamic fundamentalism.

Redmond, thanks for visiting my blog. There is a good case to be made for returning to the draft. One of the very reasons we went to an all-volunteer military in the '70s, in fact, was to keep dissent here at home to a minimum during any future wars. It has worked quite well in that regard.
Thanks for the warning - I blew right by the pictures.

You don't really believe that if more Americans saw graphic photos of blown-apart heads or horrific burns or mutilations, they'd actually "ask some hard questions about why we are fighting in Central Asia and elsewhere."

First of all, you see enough of anything on a regular basis and it loses its power to move or shock or titillate. Second, in this age of instant access to almost anything, I think most Americans are well aware of what "collateral damage" looks like. And third, the time to ask "hard questions" is before, not after, we become embroiled in a mess of our own making.

As long as it's not their own kids or loved ones most Americans don't care and shocking pictures aren't going to change that. Questioning the reasons we're over there could change things. But I've come to the conclusion that most Americans are incapable of critical thinking.

By the way, one of the most shocking (and widely published) war-related photos I've ever seen doesn't involve a body part or burnt skin and it didn't change anything either.

http://www.gallerym.com/images/work/big/pulitzer_nick_ut_vietnam_napalm_kim_phuc_6872_L.jpg
That link takes me to a page with some art photos, nothing about Vietnam. :( And yes, the average American doesn't do critical thinking; it's more satisfying to watch videos on Youtube of cats flushing the toilet. The cyber-utopians who told us the Net would promote knowledge and democratic tendencies were, um, stupid.
They should have never gone there in the first place if it wasn't for all those concocted stories of Bush's.
I just hate war.
Just hate it..
HUGGGGGGGGGGGG
Sorry; left some of it out. Try this.

www.gallerym.com/images/work/big/pulitzer_nick_ut_vietnam_napalm_kim_phuc_6872_L.jpg
Okay for some reason, it's cutting out. Here's the part you're not getting: (it deleted everything after the "napa" in "napalm") napalm_kim_phuc_6872_L.jpg
Linda, my take is that we were justified in going to Afghanistan in '01. Bin Laden, after publicly declaring jihad on our nation and then following through by murdering thousands of American civilians, was sitting over there sheltered by a government which apparently thought it was a good idea to let their territory be a Disneyland for terrorists. Few nations wouldn't have attempted a reprisal for such a thing if they had the power to do so. Where Bush's idiocy comes into play is that, even before we'd properly stabilized the situation in Afghanistan, he was already diverting military, intelligence, and financial assets to his pending invasion of Iraq. During the entire Bush administration our Central Asian policy seemed to be "let's do it on the cheap and hope the Taliban won't be so rude as to stage a come-back." That didn't work out so well.

Marjie, the second link didn't work either. Will try the third...
Oh, well yes, the image of the children fleeing down the road from massive destruction in the background. I thought that might be the one you meant. Now Vietnam, that was a war alright; our body count in those days was in the millions, not these paltry thousands we're racking up in Afghanistan...
My comment threads depend heavily on non sequiturs. I'm thinking about posting a link to People magazine's Most Beautiful People of 2010 or writing about my most mortifying personal experience just to keep things au courant. War is all gross and stuff anyway.
NH-- nice. congratulations on taking half the red pill.
VZN, thanks for the Matrix reference. I realize us sheeple aren't as aware as you Truther folk but we d0 try.

Indelible, anything with a giant red "X" through it is bound to be off-putting. Even an adorable kitten, if similarly displayed, would make one want to click away from the page.
It's a fact that if pictures and film were released on a daily basis of the death and destruction unleashed by us that opinion would turn on the wars. That's the simple reason why it is not done. It's a shameful practice and a denial of reality.

But there are more people like GWB in this country than not, people who prefer to live in a bubble and make up their own reailty without any inconvenient facts to get in the way. We should be hungry to see such pictures and know what is being done in our name.
The military learned their lesson in Vietnam about unrestricted journalistic/media access to the nastier side of war. Information and more or less unvarnished real time realism makes people ask questions, look at things differently- possibly even think. That's dangerous- and they haven't done it since.
some interesting, cutting movies to watch on this subj
- syriana
- War, Inc
- wag the dog
sheeple need shepherds. they occasionally find them. they occasionally find each other. Im not totally against em. when the student is ready the master will appear.
They also don't like us to see flag-draped coffins.
These photos show how our tax dollars are spent.
Harry, if the last decade or so has taught us anything it's that we have a strong aversion to facts.

Ian, exactly. Most of the images in this post, with the exception of the final one, I think, came from non-Amerikan sources.

VZN, I loved Syriana, and Wag the Dog was OK, though it's main virtue was that by luck it came out just as Clinton was blowing some shit up during the Lewinsky kerfluffle. I was using the term "sheeple" ironically; I relegate Truthers to the same basic category as Birthers. There is enough real stuff going on to be concerned about without falling for every conspiracy theory that comes down the pike. You know about Occam's Razor, right?

Roger, I remember with a certain wistful nostalgia Bush's refusal to let us see the flag-draped coffins. It's weird the things we've grown used to since 9/11.

Alaska, making stuff to blow people up is the only sector of our manufacturing economy which is still thriving. That is of course due to the fact that companies that make military goods are sacred cows and not to be molested by outsourcing or other postmodern capitalist practices because they are in fact intimately entwined with our government. It's corporate socialism in its purest form.
Glad it worked. War is indeed "gross and stuff" and more than that, it's usually unnecessary and the numbers don't much matter - 10, 10,000, even more, it's all bad.

The thing to me is that supporters, like those who backed Bush on his Iraq invasion, aren't going to be deterred by photos of mutilated children. They're going to rationalize them as a necessary evil.

But here's a thought: Perhaps the best source to target isn't the lemming-like public; it's the families of the guys who mastermind these things. If graphic photos of maimed and dead children were surreptitiously sent to the wives, children and even mothers of these guys with notes like "This is what your daddy does in his job," and "You raised a boy who grew up to do things like this; you must be so proud," maybe that's the key. Hit the central nervous system, not the appendages.

I must be delirious. On a lighter note, I forgot to include a link to an amicable best divorce song because after all, not all divorces are acrimonious. It's the same song but notice how festive it is when you can't understand the words and it's set to a polka beat. Everybody's happy! www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZPtnuPKyu4
These are the true offspring of the Bush years.
Can we now declare victory and get out? I don't think I need to add anything to the message in the photos. Just, let's be done with this.

What happened to Julie??
Dear nana, no, we cannot come home now, we must keep killing!! We started the Machine on its deadly path, and it must not stop, till....VICTORY!!!

What is victory?

Beats me! I'm a stupid unemployed computer operator. I've tried understanding the War(s) we got ourselves into and can't. We like getting into wars, we forget the past wars we got ourselves into and lost so we get into other wars that match up to the previous wars.

Good times.

Fuck the War Machine, Fuck the Generals, Fuck the Misguided missiles, and...uh....oh yeah....you're beautiful!!

~wanders off to contemplate his belly button~
Do people get paid when we rate them? Does it get them more attention? Does is take it to the Cover?

Why then did you ask Stilicho to rate your post? Who do you think is Stilicho?

What did you expect with this post? Why have you been watching Afghanistan like a hawk?

When one is away from a library, and when one is aware that it is people like us that write at WIKI (two of my students, aged aboyt seventeen, at Ahmedabad, maintain a page on India) (I myself started WIKI stubs on Bangla Bands once but never completed the work)(lost the email and password too), BUT, one CAN use it as a rudimentary reference to get basic bearings on a subject - what is the harm in that?

Google is quite ok too as a search engine, for most people do not know any other or use listserves. Google does not always give you what you are looking for or works best when you know what you are looking for, but it is ok to Google. Knowing something is better than knowing nothing. Or, making an attempt to look up something is better than not making an attempt at all, what do you say?

Judging by all the American writing, Cover posts etc, Americans don't seem to want to come home.

Come home to what? It certainly is more fun out there playing bloody games that are live and as such more absorbing than complex video games on war and bloodshed.

Why should people come home?

Rated but confused - what do you want? Why do you write? How exactly do you feel inside of you about what America is today?
Most people out here haven't even the strength in them to be tolerant of the 'other' bloggers' points of views or be kind to their fellow bloggers and are busy maligning and attacking people or passing judgements (or indulge in puerille: "O You say this about her? I, then am never going to read her again" attittude). They relish ousting bloggers that are 'different'. They are happy when a blogger's blog dies. Even women are so blood thirsty, most of them even the ones that say they have more than one children, (mothers are expected to be slightly different, more tolerant, expected to be kinder, gentler ) judging by what they gleefully write in comments not realizing how foreigners might read into those comments.

But maybe you are writing for yourself, to record your own feelings about what happened and thus this is really a journal entry?

Os is this your way of saying, hey man, if you must, do it so there is no mess like this, have a plan and do it neatly, in style?

I have indeed read a few Americans saying "ok enough, stop gloating - it is barbaric" and this post is written in the same vein ostensibly, but when one hears slips like "become embroilled in a mess of our own making" - one has to do a double take: what? what did you say?

There is no sense of wrong doing, there is no sense of relenting at interfering or meddling or aggressing, but the attitude is, "we set out to do something, 1) we did not have a plan 2) we messed up and mess is not good, don't like mess" Implication, if there hadn't been a mess, it would have been ok!

All of us are human beings, Nana. We all are moved by affection and smile when people smile at us and like to be loved and be cared for and enjoy sex or watching our children grow old and love our countries and our homes and what we consider OURS. All of us like to not be violated. When one has to leave and relocate - it is usually fraught with a sense of sadness and loss. No one takes these decisions lightly or in jest - but if one cannot see tolerance in simple spaces like a blogosphere, you cannot expect it out 'there'. People that run your govt are people just like you. Or Margaret or Tink or Whoever. Obama is you. Obama is not an individual entity "ruling" the united states of amercia. Obama is everyman. Just a representative of what millions of Americans dreamt of and had wanted and he now has the sad burden of carrying out what those millions wanted! Why do people make it out like he owns America and like a despot is ruling it of his own free will?

If he falls - there would be another - and it continues - you refer to History - can you point out any stretch of fifty years when the US did not meddle in other people's affairs?

Who gave YOU the mandate to build Afghanistan? It existed even before you took notice and was doing fine in its own way! It is a very old country! Older than the US of A.
What a fucking mess.

The general precept was clear enough, I thought - then you end up with a thread like this.
Blame it on psychotic crackhead amneseacus aka stillachump.
I find that those most squeamish about viewing the results of war are those least likely to be sent to fight one and the most likely to shout glory and victory at the ones made to go. I can however see the point in trying to assuage the feelings of those who will martyr him photos or not. If they are released at some time I'll most likely look, but I don't need them to know he is dead. It is the disconnect that allows us to justify war, look what happened when Vietnam was reported in an uncensored way, we lost our taste for the blood and violence.
excellent point. R
YIKES!

Margaret, even when you are delirious you think and write with clarity. Thank you for the non-acrimonious divorce polka, and good luck with the pending arson case at your hideously infested house. ;-)

Dr. Lee; exactly so. I find it interesting that the Bush presidency is widely condemned as one of the most disastrous in American history, and yet many of Bush/Cheney's less savory policies have been continued by their allegedly more liberal successor.

Guerilla Jester, thank you for visiting. These ungrateful little nations we invade need to just get with the program and embrace our empire of freedom.

Sirenita, no, we can't get out now, it would embolden the terrorists, Pakistan's nukes must be safeguarded, it's always darkest before the dawn, in for a penny in for a pound, etc. Was Julie vaporized? Her comments are back now. WTF?

Tink: GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH! REMEMBER THE ALAMO! VIVA ZAPATA! DEUTSCHLAND UBER ALLES!
NH-- I know you used "sheeple" ironically/sarcastically, obviously. I do too. re occams razor, I applied occams razor for many, many years and finally found that on some issues, it is an exceeding dull blade... worn down to virtually nothing by cascades and layers upon layers of improbable coincidences. conspiracy theorists just add up the total differently than sheeple.
if you saw the other two movies wag the dog and syriana, you are sure to like War Inc, although its much more sarcastic and cynical if you can imagine such a thing. twisted, even. plus, it has hilary duff playing a iraqi Britney Spears. cant beat that. too bad she hasnt been in any other movies.
wait-- are you saying clinton "blew stuff up" to distract world attention from the lewinsky scandal??!? wtf....thats a @#&*% CONSPIRACY THEORY dude.... geeez man.... why dont we all break out the aluminum foil hats and HAVE A PARTY....
btw I returned to this thread to say one thing I wanna say. sheeple deserve the slaughter that comes to them. but, I have sympathies. 3K civilians in 911 is a heavy price. 1M in iraq is a heavy price. let the bloodletting stop. will it ever end? oceans of blood since the beginning of time, spilled over stuff that [to borrow a line from a great & cosmic blues traveller song] "wont mean a thing in a hundred years". so yeah, maybe NH doesnt see any BIG conspiracy, just little BITTY conspiracies like the media and military and warmachines efforts to suppress information on basic military consequences.... so called "collateral damage"..... sanitized for your protection [tm].... yeah go ahead and start with the baby stuff and see where it leads you!! anyway though if you are antiwarmachine.... the reasons dont really matter too much. the tent is not that big but its big enough for all of us I say.....
ps I went to college :p
"Bin Laden, after publicly declaring jihad on our nation and then following through by murdering thousands of American civilians, was sitting over there sheltered by a government which apparently thought it was a good idea to let their territory be a Disneyland for terrorists."
haha dude thats some funny writing there. but wait, who are you talking about... afghanistan? the government that helped create this Disneyland For Terrorists was the US who funded much of the precursors of Al Qaida in the proxy warfare battle to oust the soviets.
blowback is a b**** huh!!!
CIA does not understand "karma", but it did invent the term "blowback". zen question for everyone--- whats the difference?
ps the word/adjective I was struggling for War Inc was Nihilistic. yeah its way beyond anything else. so yeah, its the perfect film to depict the inerhently *corporatocratic* warmachine..... while there have been bazillions of war movies, this is a reality very few other films dare to point out.....
Ah, you're a college boy. I won't hold that against you. :D I will put War, Inc. on my Netflix queue. But, yeah, I don't buy into the Big Conspiracy thing; once the conversation gets to the Bilderbergers and what not I start rolling my eyes. The "itty bitty" conspiracies (as you call them, though they aren't little at all) are going on right in front of our eyes, are well-documented, and seem like a more useful focus for our attention. Regarding Clinton, I didn't say that he was blowing shit up to distract attention from the Lewinsky affair; I was saying that the movie Wag The Dog, by coincidence, came out at around the same time as his cruise missile strikes on Somalia, so there was a perception, a perception strengthened by the movie and played up by Clinton's Republican enemies in Congress, that the strikes were intended to shift attention from his Oval Office blowjobs. As far as the tent being big enough, I agree, though I think my version of being antiwarmachine differs in some major ways from yours.
MF--"First of all, you see enough of anything on a regular basis and it loses its power to move or shock or titillate."
I read your other points and think you are accurate, but you underestimate the massive effect the MSM has on the daily life & thinking of americans. many believe that they have all kinds of independent thoughts and the MSM merely reiterates/confirms them. the reality is in many ways quite the opposite. it is not the public leading the MSM but vice versa in many cases. this has been perfected in the 20th century and built to the point that its seamless and imperceptable by virtually everyone alive. its the water that the fish swim in, ubiquitous yet invisible....
I think stilicho went to college too but he's very evasive about divulging personal details..... you know, just like osama bin laden was.
ps I just read today that an interview of osamas wife, she states he was EXECUTED after being apprehended. I will probably post on this & other links that dont fit the MSM story. watch closely everyone and see the rabbit from the hat transform before your eyes.
Yeah, blowback is a bitch. I'm sure Osama was thinking the same thing as he looked down the barrel of that SEAL's gun. Executed, assassinated, killed, murdered, martyred; these are all interchangeable terms to describe the fate of a guy who by any measure was a waste of oxygen. Good riddance to bad trash.
IQ, our national discourse for quite a few years has been largely composed of cognitive dissonance. It doesn't seem to bother that many people.

Kim, we need to embrace the non sequiturs, to make them a part of the conversation and yet somehow manage to make sense. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, but I find the results interesting either way.

Padraig, I will check if my library has The Body in Pain.

IQ, I'm tying up the loose ends now...

Bobbot, they (and we know who "they" are, I think) rely heavily on that disconnect. The thing is, ignorance is easy to fix, but most of us can't be bothered with informing ourselves, and it doesn't help that our press is a shadow of what it was during the Vietnam War.

Sheba: I'm glad you think so!

Rolling; I'll be back shortly...
"Executed, assassinated, killed, murdered, martyred; these are all interchangeable terms to describe the fate of a guy who by any measure was a waste of oxygen. "
some say a Rose is a Rose is a Rose.
others say, an Execution is an Execution is an Execution.
me, I think there are all different flavors. one might think that Osama had a gun and was shooting, or maybe he was just sitting in bed reading and went for his glasses, or maybe he had on handcuffs and was lying face up on the ground when a SEAL put a bullet thru his left eye in defiance of orders and the Rules of Engagement. now, I guess Obama doesnt really need to differentiate between these does he? its really all irrelevant to the entire population of the world, I guess. these you might think of all as interchangeable scenarios.... I guess I see that there could be shades of differences.
its interesting you have pictures of various bodies of children killed at war there in your post.... that reminds me.....
OK, Rolling asks:

Do people get paid when we rate them? Does it get them more attention? Does is take it to the Cover?

Why then did you ask Stilicho to rate your post? Who do you think is Stilicho?

What did you expect with this post? Why have you been watching Afghanistan like a hawk?


First part: no, no, and no. Second part: I was joking when I said he must rate. I very often joke in my comments, and I apologize if it's not always clear when I'm doing so. But, who is Stilicho? Beats me. Does it matter? Third part: when I wrote this I expected to have a discussion about the topic I posted about. That is my usual expectation when posting on OS. What is yours? Regarding the watching like a hawk thing, I used the phrase "a hawk on Afghanistan" in the sense in which it is usually used in this country if the conversation is taking place in a political context. Hawks are people who favor the use of military force when necessary to accomplish national goals; doves are the opposite. On some issues I am a hawk; on others I am a dove. Sometimes I fall somewhere in between.

And then:

making an attempt to look up something is better than not making an attempt at all, what do you say?

Most definitely it is better than making no attempt at all.

Judging by all the American writing, Cover posts etc, Americans don't seem to want to come home.

Come home to what? It certainly is more fun out there playing bloody games that are live and as such more absorbing than complex video games on war and bloodshed.

Why should people come home?

Rated but confused - what do you want? Why do you write? How exactly do you feel inside of you about what America is today?


First part: I haven't seen the polls recently but last time I checked a majority of Americans want us to bring the troops home from Afghanistan. Most people here are isolationist by nature and, frankly, couldn't give a rat's ass what happens to Afghanistan if we leave, and most people here think every American life lost and every dollar spent overseas is a futile waste of lives and treasure. To a certain extent, most people are right.

Second part: I'd wager that if you asked an average US soldier in Afghanistan whether they'd a. prefer to be there dodging IEDs and playing whack-a-mole with insurgents or if they'd b. prefer to be safe here at home, they'd choose "b" nine times out of ten. War is not *fun* and I'm surprised anyone could suggest that it is.

Third part: why should people come home? Because it is home.

Fourth part: I want the same things as most people, and I write because I enjoy the discussions I can have here on OS with people who I wouldn't otherwise get to converse with. How exactly I feel insidwe of me about my country is something it would take an entire post, or many posts, to cover. One could, if one was interested enough, read back through my posts and my comments over the last two and a half years here in Open and get a general idea of how I feel.

That's "reply to Rolling's first comment." Reply to number two coming up...
some of the families and kids/wives of terrorists have been caught up in drone strikes. some speculate that this may not be seen as a inadvertent "bug" but a feature by the CIA, who could use this as a warning/deterrent to other terrorists. and perhaps many americans might feel the same way, without ever openly voicing it of course.
yeah, blowback is a bitch. I'm sure terrorist families may be thinking the same thing as they look up at the falling missile strike from a drone. but, maybe, thinks the blindly patriotic american, they had it coming. "Executed, assassinated, killed, murdered, martyred; these are all interchangeable terms to describe the fate of people who by any measure are a waste of oxygen. good riddance to bad trash."
VZN, you're putting words in my mouth. I was referring to OBL, not to civilians killed in drone strikes. I suggest that you stick to addressing things I've actually said rather than what you assume I believe.
so what do you think, NH? should we have executed all of osamas wife, family & friends living at the compound? I heard there were lots of children running around. I heard the US wants to "interrogate" his wife and has requested her from the Pakistani government which is resisting. maybe we should Rendition her and all the kids too for good measure? you might think it is barbaric, but I heard [from wikileaks or whatever] that there was at least one case of a teenage prisoner at Guantanamo who we can safely assume was Renditioned, or Enhanced Interrogated, or whatever the CIA codeword du-jour is......
Again, you are addressing your mental construct of who I am, not things I've actually said, and what's more you're being sloppy with your terminology. Renditioning is the act of moving a suspect from one place to another; enhanced interrogation is torture. And do I think we should have executed Osama's entire family? Of course not. Is someone making the claim that we should have done so? It certainly wasn't me. Regarding the wife, I'd be very surprised if our people hadn't requested some face time with her. Does it shock you that we'd want to speak with the woman? If so, I'd be interested to hear why.
Response to Rolling comment #2:

maybe you are writing for yourself, to record your own feelings about what happened and thus this is really a journal entry?

If you're referring to this post, it's not a journal entry as much as it is me just thinking out loud, and perhaps me reacting to what I view as a reluctance on the part of many of my fellow countrymen (and fellow OSers) to look unflinchingly at what it means when we kill people.

Or is this your way of saying, hey man, if you must, do it so there is no mess like this, have a plan and do it neatly, in style?

No. It's not a question of style; it is a question of what is good policy or bad policy. For the record, I do think killing Osama Bin Laden falls under the category of good policy.

I have indeed read a few Americans saying "ok enough, stop gloating - it is barbaric" and this post is written in the same vein ostensibly, but when one hears slips like "become embroilled in a mess of our own making" - one has to do a double take: what? what did you say?

I beg your pardon, but I have made no "slips." Everything I've said is exactly what I meant to say. I think my words speak for themselves, but you're welcome to take them any way you prefer.

There is no sense of wrong doing, there is no sense of relenting at interfering or meddling or aggressing, but the attitude is, "we set out to do something, 1) we did not have a plan 2) we messed up and mess is not good, don't like mess" Implication, if there hadn't been a mess, it would have been ok!

Well, yes. Foreign policy, including planning and executing military operations, can be pursued in a pragmatic, goals-oriented fashion or it can be done sloppily. I think the first way is preferable. Do you see it differently? Regarding a sense of wrongdoing or of meddling, I see the attacks on 9/11 as wrongdoing in its most egregious, bloody form, and our subsequent invasion of Afghanistan as a response to that wrongdoing. Please understand, I am not defending our Afghan policy post-20o1, but rather describing why we initially went there. As I said yesterday, few nations which had been attacked as mine was on 9/11 wouldn't have responded in a similar manner if they had the ability to do so. If that is *meddling* so be it.

People that run your govt are people just like you. Or Margaret or Tink or Whoever. Obama is you. Obama is not an individual entity "ruling" the united states of amercia. Obama is everyman

No, Rolling, that is absolutely a naive, wrongheaded notion. Obama is not like me, nor is he working for the well-being of people like me or Tink or Margaret. He is a politician, and by his actions he has proved himself to be a politician who is very much working for the interests of the corporate sector, not the interests of regular people.

Who gave YOU the mandate to build Afghanistan? It existed even before you took notice and was doing fine in its own way! It is a very old country! Older than the US of A.

No one gave us the mandate to build Afghanistan. Who in the world has the power to give such things? We were engaged with Afghanistan through the '80s because we wanted to bloody the Russians' nose there, and we succeeded in doing so. Then once the Russians withdrew we disengaged and let things in Central Asia take their course, and we paid on 9/11 for that lack of concern for the consequences of our actions. Now we are there again, and we have two options; either pull out immediately and let things return to status quo ante, or pull out later in an attempt to leave behind a government which hopefully won't be a sponsor of terrorist organizations. Regarding the age of Afghanistan vs. the age of the United States: who cares? If by age you mean the existence of organized governance, the government of the USA is older than the concept of "Afghanistan" as such. If on the other hand you refer to geographical location, North America is as old as Eurasia, so nana-nana-boo-boo.

I thought most of this stuff was self-evident, but I welcome y0ur questions because they afford me the opportunity to lay out my own thoughts on these matters. Thank you.
Want to do something about the federal deficit?

Close those 400 bases in Afghanistan where our troops survive on $500 a gallon gasoline.
George F Kennan didn't say precisely "never get involved in a land war in Asia" but he might well have. He said this in 1948:

PPS23, FRUS, 1948, volume 1, part II, pages 510-529

VII. Far East

"My main impression with regard to the position of this Government with regard to the Far East is that we are greatly over-extended in our whole thinking about what we can accomplish, and should try to accomplish, in that area. This applies, unfortunately, to the people in our country as well as to the Government.

It is urgently necessary that we recognize our own limitations as a moral and ideological force among the Asiatic peoples.

Our political philosophy and our patterns for living have very little applicability to masses of people in Asia. They may be all right for us, with our highly developed political traditions running back into the centuries and with our peculiarly favorable geographic position; but they are simply not practical or helpful, today, for most of the people in Asia.

This being the case, we must be very careful when we speak of exercising "leadership" in Asia. We are deceiving ourselves and others when we pretend to have the answers to the problems which agitate many of these Asiatic peoples.

Furthermore, we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction.

For these reasons, we must observe great restraint in our attitude toward the Far Eastern areas. The peoples of Asia and of the Pacific area are going to go ahead, whatever we do, with the development of their political forms and mutual interrelationships in their own way. This process cannot be a liberal or peaceful one. The greatest of the Asiatic peoples - the Chinese and the Indians - have not yet even made a beginning at the solution of the basic demographic problem involved in the relationship between their food supply and their birth rate. Until they find some solution to this problem, further hunger, distress, and violence are inevitable. All of the Asiatic peoples are faced with the necessity for evolving new forms of life to conform to the impact of modern technology. This process of adaptation will also be long and violent. It is not only possible, but probable, that in the course of this process many peoples will fall, for varying periods, under the influence of Moscow, whose ideology has a greater lure for such peoples, and probably greater reality, than anything we could oppose to it. All this, too, is probably unavoidable; and we could not hope to combat it without the diversion of a far greater portion of our national effort than our people would ever willingly concede to such a purpose.

In the face of this situation we would be better off to dispense now with a number of the concepts which have underlined our thinking with regard to the Far East. We should dispense with the aspiration to "be liked" or to be regarded as the repository of a high-minded international altruism. We should stop putting ourselves in the position of being our brothers' keeper and refrain from offering moral and ideological advice. We should cease to talk about vague and -- for the Far East -- unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better."
But Lefty, that $500 a gallon fuel is making a lot of money for someone, and what's good for war profiteers is good for America. Or so I've been told.

Tom, I was trying to recall last night who said that. Kennan was a smart bastard; we need thinkers like that nowadays, but none come to mind, or at least, none come to mind who have any influence on policy. We need strategists and deep thinkers but instead we have technocrats and wonks and party hacks.
Padraig, I recall on a long-ago post of mine, or a couple of them, that we expressed differing views on Afghanistan, but as I said back then, people can disagree without turning it into a vendetta. A frank exchange of views can be a positive thing; personal attacks and incessant sniping, not so much.
I've heard it said that part of the reason the vietnam war was so unpopular was because it was on the news every night in all its bloody glory. Maybe that's what some humans need: to see the effect of their barbaric policies live and direct.
:)

Thanks Nana, am reassured you are the Nana I like and admire.

I needed to hear it bec for a min I was scared that you were carried away with that silly euphoria too. I do not quite agree with what you believe in: that American govt had only one way to respond to the bombing, and here am remembering how America had responded when late Mrs Indira Gandhi led India to retaliate Pak shelling our own borders - resulting in 1) our refugee problem; 2) all the subsequent political events including the activities of Lashkar i T, Kashmir and you know the rest - for if you understand History nothing that happens in the present is an isolated incident that explodes on to the world suddenly, there always is a background. If America had extended its support that time and that day, none of this would have happened probably and millions of Indian lives too have been safe, do not forget we lost more people to the same acts of terror than you did through your 9/11.

But I understand that it is not possible for you to know it all and you would think in the best interests of your own country.

We lost many lives in Mumbai, Gujarat, Assam, Kashmir, Delhi - sick people in hospitals and unsuspecting people sleeping in the safety of railway stations and hotels - throughout India constantly asked for American help in flushing out the terrorists from Pakistan and at one time America was actually supplying arms to them through Pakistan. But you all know that.

Anyway, I am content. I am glad you did not terat me like a moron and when I said why would people come home - I meant to what? Joblessness, drugs, dissension, depression? At least while they are on active duty they are taken care of and their insurances paid for and they are off drugs. AND most importantly - itis only when the Americans get sent to distant Asian countries do they return with some INSIGHT into how people are really the same everywhere. They come back shell shocked, with PTSD probably but at least with a little bit more understanding about fellow humans and the futility of politics and the value of life. "The Hurt Locker"? Thats the most recent one is why I mention it. You know of all the others

Thanks for being decent Nana and for being patient.

I did not sleep for days when my city got blasted and my hair had actually turned white overnight that year in Ahemdabad. One of the seventeen bombs had gone off in the Civil Hospital, a km from my house, where I was due that afternoon to collect my fit cert.
On matters this imp, that could become a matter of life and death in times of crisis, one needs to be very very clear about who one is friends with in today's times and I have been disillusioned with some one here really badly and therefore am wary now. I follow the comment thread as you know and also talk to people whenever I can and am capable of pretty lucid pretty cutting and sharp too as you well know.

I needed to have you say it.

It is always a pleasure talking with you as one can, like an adult, without getting attacked or harmed.
From Tom's material:

"Furthermore, we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without positive detriment to our national security. (!!!!)

To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and world-benefaction."
@ VZN, judging by the quality of your thought process, intellect, I could well imagine, Stilicho, you and Jester - all three to be the same person trying out the crowd with diff IDs and crowds do respond differently to diff IDs. I would never ever even in my wildest dreams assign someone like Bill Beck to be one of you. Take it as a compliment please. And VZN you are right about the blowback part and about how the dream land for terror was created to suit CIA's purpose. How Pakistan got used. At least that's the kind of idea and news that we grew up in India with through the turbulent years following Mrs Gandhi's assassination and subsequently Rajiv's.
Nana,

I suspect that you don't know this, and perhaps that is just as well, but that last photo might not be what you think it is. And if it is what I think it is, you might want to replace it with a different picture to make your point. Because as it is, it might be speaking to the direct opposite position you intend to espouse.

Now, I do *not* know the provinence of the original photograph, so take that into consideration, but the photo of the two legs, below the knees, is (in my professional opinion) not an image of a victim. Or at least, not the sort you're trying to portray.

That is what happens when somebody detonates a suicide vest, killing themselves, and as often as not the innocent civilians around them.

I am sorry to be graphic, but essentially what occurs is that both legs are preserved, just as you see there, the arms are shredded, and (sorry, again, for being explicit) usually the head pops off and flys straight upwards. Distressingly, sometimes almost perfectly, preserved.

BF
nana, yeah1! YEAH!! And Remember the Titans!!

Wait, where am I?

Damn you, why can't you post pretty flowers followed by naked ladies? Sheesh....

~leaves him some flowers~ Naked ladies are all over the place!! :D
I's heard there was naked ladies here!

Rated anyways!
Okay, I'll bite though I shouldn't. I don't think people would care if you put those on the front page every day, in fact, I think it would sell more papers. I can barely watch TV, the shows are either that gruesome or people being horrid to each other. Brutality has become what the public adores, worships, craves, gobbles up like ice cream.

If there was live footage of war it could be the next big reality show. Many people are entertained by or indifferent to horror and misery, until it happens to them.

No, we won't pull out of any wars, how else will we get someone to attack us again? Gotta feed the war machine. I should probably drive up to the mountains and scream.

If it can happen to them, it can happen to me or you. When will we learn?
Nana,

Sadly, I suspect that l'Heure is right as well. But, like politics, that's really not in my lane. Intellectually I fear that truth though. And that would really piss me off. Death, real death, as a form of purient entertainment.

BF
"People that run your govt are people just like you. Or Margaret or Tink or Whoever. Obama is you. Obama is not an individual entity "ruling" the united states of amercia. Obama is everyman"
rolling-- yes, exactly. obama and osama are both actors playing out large archetypes that relate to the collective consciousness..... Osama was the Shadow
"I would never ever even in my wildest dreams assign someone like Bill Beck to be one of you. Take it as a compliment please."
are you talking about glenn beck?
not totally following your points.
I do enjoy a commentator named Alex Jones. look him up sometime....
We should bring the troops home now and spend the money at home.

But the thing is, the Japanese and Chinese and Saudis wont buy US Treasury Bonds (and thus help us out with loans, which we need, since the rich dont pay taxes anymore), if we aren't protecting pre-existing and planned/future pipeline routes and natural resource deposits in the region.

We are the global security force for Capitalism. All countries specialize in the global economy. Arabs provide the oil, Japan the high tech, China the cheap manufactured goods, Columbia gives us coffee and cocaine, etc....We supply the muscle. And we get loans in return.

Other countries have alot to gain from US insolvency than we think. They WANT us to be dependent upon foreign loans, because this means we will be interdependent upon their law/order demands and thus police different areas of the world for them.

Why have a Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, if the 6th Fleet can do it for you?
I mean 7th fleet....there's so many....lol
Does a global economy mean perpetual war? In the U.SA. the most costly and debilitating war is the one on drugs.But it serves an industry that creates jobs - prisons.
We'll be living with both guilt and horror, a
s citizens, as we "get" the invasion of Iraq and the occupation.I THINK I choose freedom, but my mind is not made up for the best offer. I never thought I would have to wager for or against democracy vs, capitalism.
I am following commenters. aim... I know this carnage is wrong.

I no like looking at photos that remind me of war, and red blood poodles.
Puddles.
no enjoy.
Thanks tho. I always feel my heart may forever break when I ponder carnage.
War hurts ...
I need peace ...
I yearn for war's end.
Let's please cease killing.
How would you/me like it?
Bomb burst on our homes?
Do unto other? Cease wars!

But, that's just my hypersensitivity. I mean - I saw bodies that spilled the heart`
Red blood. Sigh.

Thanks Aim.
I followed 'aim'`
`
hamartia means`
`
ay aim to be peaceful
no be the warmonger
no kill human beings
no kill if you no eat it
no kill folk with drone
no kill fellow families

Yes - We are a Family
No shoot or use drone
I ask the same question
Yes to the first comment
`
Ay nanatehay - care/courage
`
These humans are not Red Tulips. How would we members of the human species (Humans) enjoy seeing those we love, and cherish, hug and embrace - be wounded, bleeding, severely traumatized...`
`
innocent humans beings
all wet-red. Cry/Weep!
This... GWOT as in a`
global war on terror.
Perpetual? Try Peace.

forever -perpetually`
In this global war crime`
Era - It's sure insanity!

Is this to be Perpetual War?
It's almost in my memories`
sad as being in a damn War!

We feel vicariously? It You?
Do unto others this sad act?
Sad...
No kill...
`
But, thanks? I think? No war!
`
This morn`
I think of better beauty to see.
I saw red roses in May already.
*
`
By Robert Burns -A Red, Red`
Red Rose...
`
Oh my luve's like a red, red rose,
That's newly sprung in [May] June;
O my luve's like the melodie
That's sweetly played in tune.

As Faire art thou, my bonnie lass,
So deep in luve I am;
And I will love thee still, my Dear,
Till a' the seas gang dry.

Till s' seas gang dry, my Dear,
And the rocks melt wi' the sun;
O I will love thee still, my Dear,
While the sands of life shall run.

And fare thee weel, my only Luve!
And fare thee weel, a while, a while!
And I will come again, my Luve,
Tho' it were ten thousand mile!
`
Padraig, Milo personifies a certain madness at the heart of what we call "The American Way." One of my favorite scenes from Catch 22 is when he's in the control tower directing bombing and strafing runs by American aircraft on an American base which were contracted for the mission by the Wehrmacht. It's sheer genius.

Tichaona says:

"Maybe that's what some humans need: to see the effect of their barbaric policies live and direct."

Absolutely. Unfortunately most people prefer, to the extent they're even aware of such policies, to avert their eyes.

Rolling: I am in fact me, always, 24/7/365. Sometimes I wish I weren't. I will come back shortly and read your comments more thoroughly but must first address a couple others.

Backsight Forethought, thank you for visiting. It's impossible to tell from the photo what severed that little girl's legs. I included it because it seemed significant t0 me that the photo was being passed around amongst the men in a unit of our troops like a baseball card. It is worth noting, however, that the vast majority of suicide bombings are carried out by males, so it seems unlikely that those legs were from anyone but a victim. Certainly, shrapnel from airstrikes can easily cause such dismemberment, and collateral damage, as it's quaintly called, is a too common occurence in Afghanistan.

Tink, my next post will focus almost exclusively on naked ladies. What, at the end of the day, is more important?

SlantyBold: soon, very soon...

Bleue, I doubt we ever will. The ability to think critically is crucial to true learning, and critical thinking isn't taught in our public school system.

RW, my take is that when the Chinese finally call in our debt they'll need to take it up with the 7th Fleet. As China rises to the top of the global heap things pr0mise to be very interesting. When the Brits passed the baton to us the process was eased by shared racial, cultural, and historical ties: with the Chinese things will be just the opposite.

Aim says:

"I never thought I would have to wager for or against democracy vs. capitalism."

They put that part in the fine print. Surprise!

Art, whenever you comment on my blog I feel blessed. Thank you so much. "Is this to be Perpetual War?" They call it the "Long War" and the "Forever War" but all I know for certain is that with each passing year it gets harder to remember peace.

Padraig, I think VZN meant that fecetiously. Misspelling intended. hahahahaha!
India wants stability in this region, and so does Egypt, the Arabs and the common people of Afganisthan and even in Pakistan. People want normal lives.

Do not believe acts of terror would stop with the death of Osama as the US managed to give a bloodline to the terror groups when it funded these groups to cope with Russia. Now the network is in place and young people are homeless, jobless, hurt and hopeless, they would continue to act in smaller groups, perhaps, regroup ten years later - but people would continue with anti American activities. America didnot leave anyone any choice over here.

There are broken schools, broken hospitals, broken cities, broken hearts, blood everywhere and so many people are crying themselves to sleep every night and the anger would now become a matter of family pride and be passed on from one generation to the other.

People do not forget misery in a hurry and need closure.

Because the younger generation is educated, they can see what the US has done in the region, they can see there is no stable govt in their countries bec of what US has done and how the US uses Taliban, Alqaeda, Osama - the bloodshed is not caused by "created" terror groups but now the awam or the common people are angry - even in Pakistan, till the US is friendly with the Pak Army, the people would continue to be against the US.

US must start caring about people and make some friends around here to contain threats of nuclear war by mistake.

Hopefully, once your Prez is secure, for your own interests, your govt now works towards peace and stability and welfare in these parts where so many lives were lost, so much misery has been inflicted.

People just want three square meals a day and want their children and family to be safe. If they live, they would buy your products. Maybe your people should keep that in mind.
"People just want three square meals a day and want their children and family to be safe"

That is true pretty much every place in the world, no? I would suggest that the governments of India and Pakistan and Iran and other neighbors (and even Afghanistan!) have a role to play in the region which should far exceed ours. The days when blame for all the problems in the world can be laid at the doorstep of the United States are coming to an end. Maybe your people should keep that in mind.
Nana,

I was finally able to get past the filters and see the link that you included with the original photo.

There's nothing there at that link that indicates that it was "a little girl" on the Al Hittin webpage, so not sure where you got that idea. They certainly don't look like children's legs to me. But in the photo collection on that link, the photo immediately preceding the severed legs is, in fact, a head, in what seems to be the same series of photos in the same location. Which suggests (doesn't prove, but suggests) that those two photos are related. Particularly as it's in line with what I previously explained about what happens with suicide-vest wearers.

Again, these are just insights. Nothing conclusive at all.

Regards,

~BF
The legs looked like they came from a little girl to me, though they could be those of a boy or even a young adult. As far as I know they have no connection, despite their inclusion on the same web site, to the photo preceding them. Regardless, I included them not because of their origin but because the photo was one which was apparently regarded with some amusement by a unit of our troops in Afghanistan which was involved in the murder of Afghan civilians.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,752310,00.html
Holy Shit - I've only been awol a few weeks+ and you've gone bald.
FRed(tm) would be appalled if he wasn't oRf licking his arse .

My God man, can't you wear a Merkin on your head like the rest of us?

Great post by the way......
You know what they say, Creeky: hair today, gone tamale.
for the record I didnt realize when I wrote my comment here that Bill Beck is an open salon writer, I searched on this pg but didnt find him. I might have even commented on his posts. Rolling used his name despite that he hasnt posted a comment here.
re govt propaganda etc.... an old expression is going thru my head, apropos....
HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE ASSASSINS
HISTORY IS WRITTEN BY THE ASSASSINS

Then why don't we hear more from the ninjas?
Nana if you read my new post and what I have said in my reply to Jester there you would see why India is unhappy about the US involvement in Pakistan. It would also give you a clearer picture of the equations here and what exactly American CIA is doing and how it is being seen locally and what effect it has on the politics and foreign policies of the countries involved. I dont know enough yet and have asked someone out here to help me study methodically, but, I have brought you perceptions of the common educated middle class of India. Am ordinary, not a scholar or expert or politician or administrator and as such can safely be taken to reporesent the common man's voice from there. Just as you represent the American voice to me. Thank you and I have missed you sorely at my space and as my sounding board
When I start reading I need to be talking too you see?
"should far exceed ours"

yes only the more I dig the more US involvement in shit I dig up - now its all coming home to roost it seems

sow as you shall reap, they say right? did you see what Pakistan said this time and why do you think they dare to? Bec they know dirty secrets with which to manipulate the 'fuckers' and the splinters fall - keep falling - sad really and depressing
War sucks. Just ask the dead...oh wait...
Doug, it's good to see you, brother!

Rolling, I read and commented on your post. Looking forward to the discussion.
Thank you Nana, yes am eager to understand this and would love a discussion as that helps me get back study some more , do some thingking and usu either I get an insight and the whole puzzle comes together or at least I get some ideas about what to think or believe. I have fixed the italics html code problem and also ansered you there.
I wish you would delete the most recent post on your blog. You're of course free to say whatever you like but posting PMs is a particularly disgusting practice and I have absolutely no respect for anyone who does so.
O I hadnt seen this msg bef. Apologies.

I dont post PMs usu and I do not - never have corresponded with anyone here but three of four of my very close friends here. These I correspond with outside as well and even call etc
Padraig was a terrible mistake and I broke rules with him and I suffered for it. I rely on my instincts and dont ignore it anymore - thx. Thx for everything.
I had deleted the earlier post and Padraig left all these comments and Posts about me? So now I cannot leave it unanswered. After Fett's blog got killed I had stopped talking to everyone that had pretended to be his friend and then had left him to "die" Scanner, Myriad, Padraig and a couple of others that I do not know so did not matter. But he kept coming on toi me and now I have to complete answering each and every allegation for the damage Padraig has done : he alienated you from Fett by saying things abut Feike (which he had first written to me, he had written to me a mail at frst about Feike, when I had ignored it, he used Fett and sucked him inot a ugly little squabble and misunderstanding, you dont know quite a lot Nana. Then he alienated another peron that was MY friend and caused misunderstandings between us. Then there is you, Then there is all these comments about me all over : at yours, Nick Leshi's , The ones at XJS's was particularly obnoxious probably bec he deleted and from his replies it seems it must have been something really bad he must have said, and finally all that is there at Beck's for the whole world to see. He even made Margaret think am a bad person ! And she doesnt even read me or knows me or ever have known me. All that damage ? And I let go? Why did you not Bonnie go then? Slander isnt easy to let go Nana. If YOU had not misunderstood me, or had called me a "bitch" I might have let it go. But that you did makes me angry at that old fox. I wont live with so many lsses silently! ) Am sorry. And remember I did not attack him first - he constantly kept it up (*from April 13 to May 2) until I finally opened my mouth to answer. How many posts had Bonnie written about you? How many times did she caste dispersions on you? And he has all my FB details. He cooly defriended me when he realised I would give him back in his own coin on May 17th. If you had tried to be understanding as you had earlier I might have listened to you and in a way I have, I realized I was getting sucked into it giving him undue attention he was hogging my space - so I did rty very hard , take my mind off the anger I felt and did a post to change the tone of my blog. And I have kept at it so far if you have noticed. There would just be one last post after my friends at news agency hear about him from our journalist contact in Colombo. Everyone here is quite curious about somethings about this gentleman and asking some very pertinent questions which never even occured to my mind. We have had a discussion about Padraig here in my city with some of my journalist friends to whom I showed what he is doing and they suggested I keep it up for my sake to protect myself from slander in future. These people know him from my FB too - as I had often praised him to them. So I shall wait - and watch and for now continue to post as usual my crap which no one would ever read anymore thanks to his machinations. :) What Victoria could not do, he neatly completed :) I have nothing against him personally but I would as I said in my blog do what it takes to safeguard me from further abuse and slander. Right now am studying his posts - my friends have pointed out a pattern which I shall write about . I was so enamoured with this man I missed all these earlier.
Afetr April 13th I had quietly been doing my own thing and not talking to anyone I didnot feel comfortable with, he kept coming on even tho I had said in a post that if these people ever came near me again after what they had done to that journal abt my father I wd delete them, he kept on coming - and I had been quite - until that day on May I did my first angry post when I had accidentally stumbled upon Beck's and saw that they had been going on and on about me Long after the thing was finished - plus he was PM ing people about me.

How would you react to such a situation? Am sure you wd have broken out with an angry "you asshole" post to wh everyone would come and rate to the skies! He lied about me knowing that no one wd ever know, bec no on e reads me! How do you deal with such people?

I know I shall be able to do nothing bec he is clever, but at least if my posts are there and among the unthinking crowd even if there is one solitary person that ever wants to seek out the truth it wd be there for him/her to see. And then judge. I dont care aout hordes of frinds I only had four or five here - he managed to take them all away and I care. Am human too.
you see these wd have looked better in a PM - wd have saved me embarrassment to be making private conversation with you in public - it is like talking to someone at a Mall with everyone listening in. I hated this. I am basically a very reticent person that likes to keep herself to herself - and I never go out and socialise or have a herd of friends and chatter etc - and so this was really unpleasant to me having to talk to you like this and this made me hate that man all the more. I detest this man from the core of my heart.
Once you have read them do delete this set bec they look inappropriate here. If you must have a copy shall send put them on a blogpost for you.