NOVEMBER 2, 2011 8:55AM

The side of the story many prefer not to acknowledge

Rate: 11 Flag

Ben Sen and I have had our differences from time to time in the past, but I am sick and tired of those who refuse to acknowledge or deal with facts, bullying him around. 

 

I hate to be redundant, but some people whose names need not be mentioned refuse to acknowledge facts.

 

Lets start with the curious statement that someone made concerning israeli borders  ". . .  legally more open than any I have ever seen . . . "  

 

The reality is israel routinely and flagrantly violates the seaspace and land borders of its neighbors with impunity.

It evens reserves the right to eggress upon the rights of nation's ships in universally acknowledged international waters. 

Internally, here are some example of some of how open their "borders" are:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am REALLY getting tired of presenting these graphic representations of reality:

 

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

It is the goal of If Americans Knew to provide full and accurate information on this critical issue, and on our power – and duty – to bring a resolution.

Please click on any statistic for the source and more information.
Statistics Last Updated: October 25, 2011

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed
September 29, 2000 - Present

124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and1,463 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)

Chart showing that approximately 12 times more Palestinian children have been killed than Israeli children

Israelis and Palestinians Killed
September 29, 2000 - Present

Chart showing that 6 times more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis.

1,084 Israelis and at least 6,430 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information)

Israelis and Palestinians Injured
September 29, 2000 - Present

9,226 Israelis and 45,041 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Sources & More Information.)

Chart showing that Palestinians are injured at least four times more often than Israelis.

Daily U.S. Military Aid to Israel and the Palestinians
Fiscal Year 2011

Chart showing that the United States gives Israel $8.2 million per day in military aid and no military aid to the Palestinians.

During Fiscal Year 2011, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $8.2 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians. (View Sources & More Information)

Current Number of Political Prisoners and Detainees

Chart showing that Israel is holding 5300 Palestinians prisoner.

0 Israelis are being held prisoner by Palestinians, while5,300 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Sources & More Information)

Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
1967 - Present

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,813 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967. (View Sources & More Information)

Chart showing that 24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished, compared to no Israeli homes.

Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates

Chart depicting the fact that the Palestinian unemployment is around 4 times the Israeli unemployment rate.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 6.4%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 16.5% and40% in Gaza. (View Sources & More Information)

Current Illegal Settlements on the Other’s Land

Israel currently has 236 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land. (View Sources & More Information)

Chart showing that Israel has 227 Jewish-only settlements on Palestinian land.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/ 

 

 

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I'm jewish with a long line of rabbis on both sides of my family. I don't need a book to recite most of the important prayers. I lost half of my family in the fires of Europe and have studied this matter for nearly five decades.

I'll match my qualifications to discuss these issues with ANYONE on OS. I know Ben is jewish. I believe his views are, for the most part, congruent with mine.
I'm waiting to hear from those who will argue with stats, RW. They're out there. Do they have the courage to show their faces?

Thanks for being the first to comment and rate.

As I said to Mishima, recently, a man on the right, whom I respect, there are times when the right and left find they have more in common than one might expect.

Thanks, again, for stopping by, RW.
Thanks for posting this markinjapan, I will read through the links.
Rita, forgive me, as I don't recall You visiting before, however if this is Your first visit, new visitors are ALWAYS especially appreciated.

Please DO explore the links, and the site itself is massive and contains huge amounts of copiously researched info.

Thanks, again for coming, and please stop by whenever You see something that piques Your interest.
Unconscionable behavior. People have to be reminded that the Palestinians are an occupied people. It's not an even fight.
In another vein, people in my neighborhood, let boys dress up as snipers(saw 4 in person) for Halloween-that's how much progress we're making towards peace.
Janice, Your appearance here is hardly surprising; Your words are gems of wisdom, especially "the Palestinians are an occupied people. It's not an even fight."

The Halloween You describe is despicable and to use Your words unconscionable.

Thanks for Your valued and valuable contribution to this post.
Most of this is information that should be available. Some of it is a little disingenuous, like the Bulldozed Houses statistic (an activity that a lot of the physical participants thought was completely wrong while they did it), but the casualty numbers make sense. I don't want to go through these point by point because that would be more distracting than useful, but I will give one answer from the other side:

The lower number of Israeli casualties than Palestinian casualties is not due to lack of trying on the Palestinians' part, particularly Hamas in recent years. When missiles hit Sderot every day over a few years and there were only a few killed, that's in part because Israelis built bomb shelters and spent a whole lot of time in them. As I've said elsewhere, you don't get moral credit for bad aim.

That being said: the number of Palestinian casualties is simply too high, particularly the number of children. (This is agreement with your premise, not disputing of your facts - it could be taken either way.)

What led to the borders being closed? Clearly, pregnant Palestinian women on the way to a hospital should be brought there; if the issue is fear, then scan the family like we do at airports. The Israelis are more capable than anyone at that. However, the phenomenon of border checks and fences came from the consequences of not having them.

By the way, am I who you were referring to when it comes to bullying Ben Sen? Oddly enough, I asked a friend in a comment if I were guilty of exactly that. So now I'm asking another.

Rated.
Markinjapan, it may be my first comment, however, I read both sides of the issue here on OS, I appreciate the links rather than standard opinion, also. Actually, I read your blog quite often as well as the other people who comment quite frequently on this issue. Thanks for the welcome..
Thanks for Your comments, Kosh. I find them wise and well-thought out, as is befitting a person such as Yourself.

The reference to Ben is generic one, applying to no one in particular.

I find his words, too often dismissed for no good reason.

As for bad aim, this is a major piece with which I take issue with You. The majority of "rockets" fired are Kassam rockets.

Google them and You will see that, in reality they are little more than supercharged firecrackers made from crude materials, this few casualties.

As ALWAYS, thanks for stopping by, Kosh, my friend.
Rita, it is I who should thank You even more, for adding the comment that You read both sides of the issue.

I think that is incumbent upon anyone seeking the truth.
Invited the traveler and hasbara friend bags to come visit. The traveler responded with obscenities, and continues to lie on his blog.

babs, at least said nothing (yet).
Thanks Torrito - I knew You'd be by soon.

ALWAYS appreciate Your support - Folks like You keep the fires within burning.
Mark,

I will break my own rule about engaging with you simply to correct a lie you made.

You invited me to read your statistics and you said I replied with obscenities.

This is yet another example of how you distort the truth for your own reasons. Here is what I said:

"Morocco, due to its relatively enlightened King, was for a long time the single bright spot in the Arab World. One of my wife's best friends is a refugee from Morocco. In 1948 there were quarter of a million Jews, now they are perhaps 5000.

And what about Jews in Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon etc.
What about the 800,000 to one million Jews expelled from the Mid-East countries?

Mark, the only reason I would read your blog is for the unusual sight of a man shitting on his own head and believing it is perfume."

The only obscenity in that response is in your mind, a truly fevered place to contemplate.
I encourage anyone to read my posts and indeed see who looks at both sides of the question.
G-d, the ugly old man has appeared. One of MANY differences between us is that you don't consider sh*tting to be an obscenity and I do, thus the use of the asterisk.

I invite ANYONE/EVERYONE to take the Neanderthal up on his invitation and visit his blog post and watch how he wiggles and squirms his way out of a lie concerning Arafat's peace overture:

http://open.salon.com/blog/the_traveler/2011/10/30/mahmood_abbas_is_right

Also, note the sounds of silence from the cretin regarding the substance of the post.
Why is is necessary for you to say what religion/ethnicity you are/were born into? Does being a Jew/sayong you're Jewish, confer on you a special defense against disagreement here, as if to say, "Well!, If I'm a Jew and I'm saying these things, then my opinions hold a special weight"?; is that what you imagine? Pls explain.
Jonathan,
I'll field that one.

I assume that Mark wants to make it abundantly clear that his opposition to what Israel is doing is not based on antisemitism (which, frankly, with a lot of other critics that's exactly what it's based on).
jonathan, how do I know what denomination of jewry you belong to, where your shul is located, sometimes what you are studying that day/week?.

you've not PMed that info to me. Does the inclusion of that information confer extra legitimacy on whatever topic younger broaching that day?

How, substantively, does my declaration of my affiliation differ from yours?
Kosh, I'll only half agree with Your analysis, as when someone accuses men of antisemitism, it indicates they find it easier to attack the messenger than deal with the message.

Take the prophet's woefully weak comments. No acknowledgment that he even took the time to even glance at the information in the post.

I don't see why jonathan's disclosures are different than mine; other than he seems to approve of anything they do, and I am increasingly critical of their actions.

Thank you both for stopping by.
The statistics fail to catch the effects of rocket attacks from Palestine, but it's a negligible figure, but otherwise, you're 100% spot on.
some arguments hate facts - they are just too hard to lie around - but just like here in America- its not the facts of a matter that ....well matter - in the end truth is not so much on either side - the truth is that peace is cheap. family is cheap. freedom is cheap. who makes a buck when these three come together? certainly not the high tech defense contractors - and the rest of the vultures who feed off of the man- made misery in the mid-east and any city in the us.
The site from which the bar charts are posted is voluminous. This is the best they could do concerning Palestinian injuries:


We have been unable to find details about the breakdown of injury types suffered by Israelis, so the chart below only applies to the Palestinians injured.
(If you know a reliable source for such information, please contact us. Thanks!)

Palestinian Injuries
Sep 30, 2000 - Dec 31, 2008
Percentage of those injured that are minors
West Bank: 35.7%; Gaza: 20%
Palestine Monitor
Injured by Live Ammunition
8,889
PRCS
Injured by Rubber-/Plastic-Coated Bullets
7,253
PRCS
Injured by Tear Gas
6,824
PRCS
Injured by Misc. Causes
10,673
PRCS
Number of Permanent Disabilities
2,500+
Palestine Monitor
Israeli Injuries
(Source: Israeli Foreign Ministry)


Israeli Injuries
Severely Injured
642
Moderately Injured
940
Lightly Injured
5,263

Hmmmm. One has to wonder why they can't get reliable info on israeli injuries!

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/injuries.html

ALWAYS my pleasure to have You visit, ONL.
Snowden, thanks for coming by, and a warm welcome, if You've not been here before.

As america sinks into the muck of it's own making the leading growth industries seem to be:

a. wars (add Africa to that list)
b. arms manufacture (often sold to both sides of a conflict), and
c. the prison-industrial complex.

Thanks for coming by Snowden and allowing me to address the prime source for the mayhem indicated above.
Mark bc you're engaged in what experts in rhetoric and argument/debate call "special pleading" and it's beneath you. I have made no cse here abt anything, so that I don't or do share anythng abt me is irrelevant.

You, on the other hand, made a deal of your being a Jew in order, obviously, to give your argument a special, added, alleged authenticity..

...as if to say, "I am a Jew, so it stands to reason that if I criticise Israel, you should give my arguments more weight than were i not a Jew".

This is as phony a way to argue a point as it gets.
You're entitled to your opinion, jon.
phony??? pot calling the kettle black much?
I cry with you!
This is one of America's greatest shames.
Hello Mark,

How about this exchange between Matt Lee and Victoria Nuland, after the (affirmative) Unesco, Palestinian recognition vote!

It would be almost amusing, to see them (the U.S. and 13 others, who voted against 107 nations from the rest of the world) backpedaling and tripping over their own feet... if their game weren't so deadly.

Just some more evidence to throw on the pile.
Yes, it is Kathy. Note the blog post starts with israel and soon we are talking about america.

TOTALLY intertwined.

Well worth crying over, as You note.

Thanks for the contribution.
well you are kewl

but please

tags = 'OWS'
This is important folks. PLEASE note that Inverted Interrobang's comment is hot link clickable.

Watch how america does it's dealings. In retaliation for a vote that had overwhelming support america in it's "benevolence" cut funding to UNESCO.

This is an incredibly important comment II, and any thinking american should be grateful to You for it.

UNESCO's mission statement:

"UNESCO works to create the conditions for dialogue among civilizations, cultures and peoples, based upon respect for commonly shared values. It is through this dialogue that the world can achieve global visions of sustainable development encompassing observance of human rights, mutual respect and the alleviation of poverty, all of which are at the heart of UNESCO’S mission and activities.

The broad goals and concrete objectives of the international community – as set out in the internationally agreed development goals, including the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) – underpin all UNESCO’s strategies and activities. Thus UNESCO’s unique competencies in education, the sciences, culture and communication and information contribute towards the realization of those goals.

UNESCO’s mission is to contribute to the building of peace, the eradication of poverty, sustainable development and intercultural dialogue through education, the sciences, culture, communication and information. The Organization focuses, in particular, on two global priorities:

Africa
Gender equality
And on a number of overarching objectives:

Attaining quality education for all and lifelong learning

Mobilizing science knowledge and policy for sustainable development

Addressing emerging social and ethical challenges

Fostering cultural diversity, intercultural dialogue and a culture of peace

Building inclusive knowledge societies through information and communication"

Thank You so much for that, II.
Welcome aboard Ume. It is always a special occasion when new commenters come aboard.

It should be self-evident from my far, far-left position that I am an ardent supporter of OWS.

Were I in the states, I'd be sitting there in solidarity. I've, already, been illegally arrested four times for exercising my freedom of peaceful assembly, not to mention tear gassed and beaten more times than I can count.

Heard enough "Love it or leave its," that it dawned on me, one day, that if I had ever truly loved it, clearly, I no longer did.

One of the best decisions I ever made. Three decades as an ex-pat in a dozen different countries have shown me that "we're #1" is a slogan of denial and delusion.

Once again, thanks for visiting.
Americans have been so busy loudly proclaiming, “We’re number 1” that they failed to notice that they’re not......

.
Point well made and taken, Sky.

As I've often said:

#1 war making
#1 armaments sales, often to both sides in a conflict.
#1 prison-industrial complex (more citizens behind bars than any other country).

Thanks for stopping by Sky.
mr. wolfman,

I am not the only one on OS aware of the insidious and shameless way you blog whore. Sending a PM to a favorites group is an acceptable means of blog whoring, although I, personally don't do it.

Sending numerous PMs to selected people to create the illusion that you are making a special and personal appeal is the height of hypocrisy and deceit.

Having such an inflated ego, you've likely not noticed that ever since you tried to strong arm me into rating a blog post of yours with which I clearly didn't agree, I've not commented on any further of your blogs.

Despite, voicing my specific objections to the post, concerning obamacare, you persisted and tried to convince me that I had an obligation to endorse the post.

THREE PMs worth explaining why I owed it to you to rate your post.

I'm unaware of my obligation to be beholden to you. Frankly, I don't owe you dick, other than disdain for your methods and the way you deceive OS with artificially inflated ratings.

On my previous blog post, I told you nicely, that you were no longer welcome here, yet here you are again with your asinine abbreviations besmirching my blog.

As you didn't understand the last time, let me be more clear: stay the f*ck off my blog, as I have "religiously" stayed off yours.

Take your delusional holier than thou concepts and post them where they are welcomed.

This is NOT the place to spread your hubristic sh*t.
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