A request has been made for a minute of silence at the opening of the Olympic Games in memory of the eleven Israeli athletes and coaches who were murdered by Black September at the Munich Olympics forty years ago this year. The International Olympic Committee has denied this request, twice, saying that such an action is inappropriate.
The request was made by Israel.
The request is supported by:
The Canadian government,
The Australian parliament,
The German Bundestag,
The United States Senate,
Unanimously,
140 members of the Italian parliament,
About 50 members of the British parliament,
And the President of the United States, Barack Obama.
This list includes both the country hosting the Olympics where the murders took place and the country hosting the current Olympics.
Bob Costas, who is heading NBC’s Olympic coverage, has decided to hold his own minute of silence on the air when the Israeli delegation enters the Olympic Stadium. He told the Hollywood Reporter:
“I intend to note that the IOC denied the request. Many people find that denial more than puzzling but insensitive. Here’s a minute of silence right now.”
All this leaves me with a question:
Can you imagine a request made under similar circumstances by any other country being denied?
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Comments
I think the "politics " of the United Nations speaks for itself in terms of how "they" feel about Israel and the Jewish religion. They are "Hateful" .
Silence for the 11 Israeli victims of a Palestinian terrorist group Black September 40 years ago? I feel torn about it.
Yes, it is an anniversary of something tragic and significant. But will it contribute to further political demonization of an entire population of people who I feel have been so excessively victimized themselves and by the leadership of the population of those 11 athletes, stirring up such strong memories of grief or rage or resentment, etc., in various groups witnessing it all.
The institutional criminality of this country and Israel and other countries and the exploitation of propaganda for craven purposes makes me very cynical and suspicious of any posturing to solicit emotionalism in the populations of the world. If Israel and the United States governments sincerely respected human life I would not have a problem. I do not believe they do. I can't believe I am saying that so bluntly, but I am afraid I believe it. I hate hypocrisy and emotional manipulation for gamesmanship. I say to them stop playing with jingoism and nationalism by exploiting personal tragedies in people's lives. If governments acted with honor and empathy, so much person to person deadly violence would be averted. My take, kosh.
best, libby
Rated.
I will certainly watch. I had no intention, but now I will watch
Thoth,
The official answer is that the opening ceremonies are too joyous an occasion. That's what Jacques Rogge, who heads the IOC, says. It's not much of an answer and it is far from satisfactory to Costas or the other parties listed. Israeli opinion is, in matters of the IOC, irrelevant.
Libby,
The athletes in question weren't killed because of whom they were personally oppressing. They were athletes and coaches.
The idea that what Black September did in Munich in 1972 would be acceptable under any circumstances is not something I can get my head around. If your point is that Israel is oppressive, granted, though unfortunately the extent to which they are is not unusual but the extent to which they are vilified for that oppression is.
What is the proper response to oppression? I will probably use this answer elsewhere in the future, but the idea that targeting and murdering non-combatants in this fashion, what we refer to as Terrorism, is akin to the idea that Rosa Parks should just have left a package bomb on that bus.
Or perhaps been a suicide bomber, like the person who recently murdered a bunch of Israeli teenaged tourists in Bulgaria.
The message of a moment of silence would not be that whatever Israel does is OK. We all know better, including the Israeli Left. The message would be that terrorism is not OK, under any circumstances. If that's a message you disagree with, that is an entirely different conversation.
Lezlie
Bravo for Bob Costas.
r./
The responses of some of the commenters remind me of the monuments in Poland and the Ukraine which remember "those who died" in a generic way, rather than acknowledging the planned extermination of an entire people: Jews. There has been a great deal of press about this and many of the governments have acknowledged the fault, just because people like you Kosh, who understand, as I do, the nasty whiff of the darker side of humanity that remains today, alas often spoken by "progressives." And I don't care how glibly it is argued. I know it when I see it, read it or hear it. I have lived with it in all forms, outright and camouflaged in intelligent prose and always denied. It makes me sad. Hooray for Bob Costas, and thank you for alerting us.
If anyone may be murdered bc of national affiliation only and w,o universal outrage, then all bets are off...
It also is stunning that Jan's response would get safe harbor anywhere...the fact is and we ought to all know that is is that only Israeli athletes would garner a response that says, in effect, that a mpment of silence for them, who were in fact murdered w,o any conceiveable justication, is illegitimate unless we hold thousands of moments for all victime of political terrorism at all world-wide events, even if those whom are being mourned have no imaginable affiliation with 99% of the events themselves.
This is simply a way to excuse Black September in a roundabout manner and is not worthy of the commenter.
The moment of silence should about the slaughter of innocent athletes not about Israel per se. But in the end it is always about politics.
politics should not have anything to do with it, nor how you feel about them. They were victims. Speaking of empathy, Libby, a good friend of mine was slaughtered by P.L.O. terrorists during this same time period while in Rome. She was just an American teenager, headed to see her parents during the holiday. She was seated on the plane beside her brother. The terrorist looked right at her and threw the hand grenade. Those eleven people at the Olympics were killed in a cowardly, criminal manner, and so was my friend. If you don't stand up for what is the right thing to do to honor innocent victims of undeserved violence, then perhaps it just never hit home to you. You can't blame any of these victims for something you believe was a human rights violation in another time and place by a different country or their own country and a different set of people . That doesn't cut it. You can't stand up for victims of one human rights violation and then not stand up for the others. I don't like what I see happening to innocent people I know, or to innocent Palestinians, or to innocent people from Israel. Eleven murdered Olympic athletes deserve a proper Olympic honor. How can you say they don't just because the U.S. and Israel and other countries don't show any "empathy"? Where was the empathy for my friend? Where was the empathy for the athletes from Israel? There wasn't any. This can be where it starts -- to honor the victims, to keep them in our memory, to stay vigilant so it doesn't happen again, and to send a message that replaces the terrible message that came with the deaths. Otherwise, don't ask me to join in with you speaking out against other human rights violations by others, because it appears your own empathy is just one-sided. I mean that respectfully and out of love.
(Why, under the circumstances, does it not surprise me that I have to do this?)
The reason the IOC should grant a minute of silence to this particular set of victims is because this particular set of victims was victimized AT THE OLYMPICS AND WERE OLYMPIANS, not because they happen to have been Israelis.
I'm sorry it bothers you so much that Israeli victims should be entitled to special recognition under Any circumstances but, in this case, only Israelis fall under this category.
You have the model upside down. It ostensibly bothers you that any set of victims should get special recognition. Given that only one set of victims falls under the Olympics category, what you are really suggesting is that one category of victims is NOT entitled to recognition, that category being Israelis.
That suggestion is not acceptable.
Jonathan,
Thank you for both comments.
Lynette,
I have never Favorited another OSer without reading at least one of their posts - until now. This comment told me everything I needed to know. Thank you. As Lea said, Brava.
Lezlie,
Thank you for making my point before I did. I wish Jan had addressed your point before I addressed his.
Thank all of you for commenting.
that recieved a Reader's Pick.
And thank you, Lea, as I was going to thank Lynette for her comment, with the same word, "Brava!" She is a good soul.
Thank you. My mistake.
I didn't expect the responses to this post to be anywhere this illuminating.
Lezlie
It is important to note that the sportsman from Georgia who died in a practice run during the luge at the last winter Olympics WAS honoured by a moment of silence during that Olympics. The Israelies are, though, somehow "different". Hum, could it be because they are Israelis?
Libby's comment is disgusting and shows an unintentional contempt for the Palestinians - she can spend some time figuring that out. Jan, as usual, cannot get off the fence when it comes to straightout condemnations of murder. And generalized "moments of silence" mean - rather as something like "Presidents' Day" does, nothing. But generic "nothingness" suits, apparently, for Jan.
I wasn't aware of the Georgian. That makes matters worse.
PeelingAnOrange,
Depends whose heart. The hearts of the athletes and a lot of the viewers, yes. The hearts of the IOC, no, assuming they have them.
Of course you do.
The question then becomes:
When is it appropriate for any given group to specify a single victim or set of victims for commemoration?
When that victim or set of victims is theirs.
Why do we commemorate the 9/11 victims here? Because they're Americans. Groups always memorialize their own martyrs, casualties, however you want to put it. Of course that's what we do.
I don't attend the funerals of complete strangers with whom I have no connection. That doesn't mean those dead shouldn't be mourned; it just means that such mourning isn't my task.
Why should the IOC grant a moment of silence for these athletes and coaches? Same reason: these were Olympians, Olympians taken hostage and killed during the Games themselves, by terrorists who got around Olympic security to accomplish this. The link is what makes this action appropriate.
My issue is a simple one: Under normal circumstances, no one, including the IOC, would question this - they'd just do it. As Barbara Joanne pointed out, they already did this to memorialize an Olympian who was killed during the games, though in that case it was a single accidental death, not a multiple murder.
What makes these circumstances abnormal? The identity of the victims. If they weren't Israelis, this wouldn't have become an issue, I wouldn't be writing a post about it, because if these athletes and coaches came from somewhere else, they'd already have their minute of silence. There would be no one to object. However, once you introduce Israelis into the equation, there is always someone to object, no matter how run-of-the-mill and reasonable the request.
It's bad enough that the IOC makes such decisions based, not on the objective standard of actions, but on the subjective standard of the identity of those on behalf of whom the request was made. It's worse that there are people in OS who are willing to follow suit.
P'raps if you hadn't said this :
"... eleven Israeli athletes and coaches..."
or this :
"The request was made by Israel."
or this :
"Can you imagine a request made under similar circumstances by any other country being denied?"
... unless your post has been written to further divide us ~ here on OS, or generically world-wide.
Why embody nationality at all, into this ?
I'm all for a minute's silence.
If the adults can't agree, Jon's son and his friends will oblige.
This post strikes me as deliberately divisive, along national lines. If Jan doesn't feel like engaging, or rising to the bait, let him be.
I'd add that B Joanne has added nothing by calling Libby's response "disgusting." Libby had the decency to end her contribution, ..."my take, kosh."
I know whose opinion I respect more.
The entire point is that these are human beings who lost their lives at the Olympic venue. They were there to participate in the Olympic tradition, which is supposed to be about bringing nations together in peace to compete on the world stage. If you missed Lynette Stark's comment, please read it. It is beautiful. How awful for us all when mourning the dead is not politically correct!
It was the point I made in my first comment to Kosh, here.
Nationality need NOT enter this discussion, at all.
But, forget the fence-sitting. Why not honour these men? Why not the moment of silence SPECIFICALLY for the men who were murdered at the Olympics? What is the problem?
February 13, 2010 7:20 AM
Read more: http://www.gazette.com/articles/somber-94140-celebration-vancouver.html#ixzz21Ry4mKXq
Nationality is why this is an issue in the first place. Nationality is why the dead were refused their minute of silence. I am not causing divisiveness, I am protesting it. You have the purpose of this post backward.
Jan,
Whether or not you think this is enough, the facts are that a small, simple courtesy was requested on behalf of the dead, and that a small, simple courtesy was refused, with all evidence pointing to cause of this refusal being the nationality of the dead.
This is either OK with you or it isn't.
by Deborah Lipstadt
"Why the IOC refusal? The Olympic Committee’s official explanation is that the games are apolitical. The families were repeatedly told by long-time IOC President Juan Samaranch that the Olympic movement avoided political issues. He seemed to have forgotten that at the 1996 opening ceremony he spoke about the Bosnian war. Politics were also present at the 2002 games, which opened with a minute of silence for the victims of 9/11.
The families have also been told that a commemoration of this sort was inappropriate at the opening of such a celebratory event. However, the IOC has memorialized other athletes who died “in the line of duty.” At the 2010 winter games, for example, there was a moment of silence to commemorate an athlete who died in a training accident.
The IOC’s explanation is nothing more than a pathetic excuse. The athletes who were murdered were from Israel and were Jews—that is why they aren’t being remembered. The only conclusion one can draw is that Jewish blood is cheap, too cheap to risk upsetting a bloc of Arab nations and other countries that oppose Israel and its policies."
I never intimated in any way that these men should not be respected as humans and that their deaths as humans is a terrible event. I cannot see Israel as honorable in the basic nature of terror since terror is one of Israels favorite tools and no nation or group indulging in terror should be excused in any way.
These athletes, of course, were not terrorists and that terrorists used them as a target is horrible, just as any victim of a terrorist should be respected.
The Olympics is an international event devoted to peace and good will and cooperation of all mankind. For the Olympics to decry all violations of individuals as victims does not at all weaken the protest, it strengthens it immensely in that all mankind stands behind that condemnation of terror. There is no harm in mentioning the names of the Israeli athletes but they are not alone in their victimhood and it donates to humanity in general much more strength to the thought that thousands are joined in protest over these killings in which thousands have suffered. This is a world problem and all nations in the world should be unanimous in their protest.
Yes. I wish I could draw another conclusion. Israeli casualties are being refused a courtesy extended to others for no other reason than that such a courtesy would garner a protest from governments and entities that are antisemitic.
Jan,
Fences isn't my term. However, you are being asked a basic question that you are avoiding. As I said a moment ago, this is either OK with you or it isn't. If it isn't, I'm curious if you protested when the IOC granted a moment of silence for specific victims in other years on the grounds that they were for specific victims or whether your objection is reserved for Israeli beneficiaries.
That's a simple question. Please address it directly.
I am trying to be direct. I regard a moment of silence as a trivial action in regard to respect for death. It is a momentary pause imposing a minor public subjugation of a crowd to publicly demonstrate an emotion which may or may not be felt genuinely. I have no objection if people permit this basically meaningless action directed at specific victims. My alternate of using a worldwide platform to publicly decry the deaths of not only these specific individuals but all victims of terrorism has evidently evoked protest because all the other victims of terrorism are viewed by some as irrelevant in comparison to these specific victims. So be it. If Israel feels insulted by being included with the rest of mankind then, by all means, let their victims alone be mourned. I have no objection to that. It just seems to me to be a lost opportunity.
Israel hasn't objected to the inclusion of anyone. In fact, in this case the problem is the exact opposite: Israel is being excluded from a courtesy extended before.
So, if this gesture is so trivial, what does it say that the IOC is unwilling to extend even a trivial gesture to murdered Olympians because of their nationality?
But forget the "fence", maybe that was not a good way to put it. FINE, like who cares. What I do care about, albeit while feeling it is probably hopeless in your case, is this: Can you say "Yes" to a moment of silence for these specific murder victims at this (the Olympics) specific venue or not? Yes or no?
And, yes, if it had been the other way around, a group of Israelis breaking into the dorm of some Palestinians or other Arab group and holding them hostage and killing them, I do suspect there would be a moment of silence. Don't you?
It would be helpful if you read and understood my comments. I have nothing against moments of silence except they seem rather insignificant to my mind. But the Olympics does present a world platform for commenting on world behavior and it could be a place to indicate that world peace and humanitarianism, which is a positive goal of the exercise, would be enhanced by a general expression of disgust for terrorism of any kind by any nation against innocents and the citing of the Israeli athlete tragedy would certainly fit well into that context.
The incident took place around forty years ago. I would e very surprised if there was no Olympic comment at that time but I do not know and cannot say. I am very curious as to why Israel requested comment on an incident so far in the past. Are other unfortunate deaths also necessarily to be commented on every forty years or does Israel require only Israeli tragedies to be so special? This strikes me as somewhat odd.
Another implied problem is that the Israelis are notoriously and vociferously eager at all times to characterize any neglect of Israeli suffering as anti-Semitism for reasons I can only speculate upon. There is no question that Jews worldwide have suffered ill treatment for centuries and frequently seize upon any slight demeaning their character or behavior as a gross insult but many ethnic and national groups suffer somewhat the same way and the Jews themselves indulge in this unfortunate behavior openly and incessantly insofar as the Arabs are concerned. It seems no group is immune. Criticism of Israeli policies are all too often indicated as antisemitism and that can only be accepted if Israel represents all Jewish opinion and that, also, is very far from valid. On that basis, even a very large number of Israelis would be considered antisemitic. A good deal of the world is obviously very unhappy with Israeli behavior and these are people who are not necessarily affected directly by that behavior but find it lacking, not only in generally decent humane behavior, but also in direct opposition to international law and it seems likely this might have had some effect on the Olympic committee's decision to not entangle itself in the many disagreements involved. I personally am not particularly fascinated by the whole Olympic movement nor the decisions of the committee that seem to be more concerned with financial rewards than human ideals but that is outside this discussion.
By all means, if every unfortunate Olympic death is to be commented upon regularly every forty years, let this become common practice. It is no less fascinating, from my viewpoint, from watching superbly constructed humans running in circles.
You're more than welcome.
Jan,
Israel is not requesting special recognition here. Israel is requesting normal recognition here and not getting it. There’s a difference. The list of other governments supporting this request should give you a clue about this.
So you think Jews complain too much? Or that Israelis do? You can’t accuse Jews of only complaining on our own behalf or of only helping our own, because that doesn’t wash. You can’t legitimately accuse Israel of that either. They accept more non-Jewish refugees than any of the nations around them, most of which have a great deal more land to put them on. They help in international crises with medical and rescue aid to a greater extent than almost anyone, including arriving in Haiti after their most recent natural disaster more quickly than the far closer Americans and with a far more complete medical facility. (Syrian state television accused them of being there to steal organs for resale.)
This is getting to be beside the point. I have a pair of concerns of a far more personal nature.
1. That your opposition to Israel under any and all circumstances is vociferous is certainly obvious, but I’m afraid it’s reached the point where it looks like there’s an underlying unexpressed reason. I have never complained about criticism of Israel, only about double standards. Complaining about Israeli human rights is one thing; after all, they are far from innocent, even though the surrounding nations and entities tolerate minorities less and kill more civilians, neither of which seems to bother you remotely as much as Israel’s human rights violations. However, this time you’ve complained about a trivial (your word) and easy request, a request backed by a list of nations that should indicate that this request is not unreasonable. A minute of silence for some murdered athletes and coaches at the 40th anniversary of its occurrence at the opening ceremony of the event at which the murders occurred? Really? You can try to distract us as much as you’d like, saying that commemorating the murders is fine as long as there is no focus on Israeli victims (in spite of the fact that they were murdered specifically because they were Israeli), saying that you think minutes of silence are silly, saying that you think the Olympics are silly, and finally getting closer to the truth when you state that Israelis and Jews complain too much.
There are others who oppose Israel a lot here. They fall into three catetories: those who react reflexively (and often have short fuses), those who are underinformed (about things like the extent to which Jews were indigenous to Palestine before the Zionist movement was launched), and those who couldn’t argue their way out of a wet paper bag. You have neither a short fuse nor a lack of intelligence, so I can’t use either as an excuse.
2. Our recent conversation on another of my posts was a little too illuminating. I suggested that, given your ancestry, the possibility existed that Judaism had, even indirectly, detectably affected your moral development. Your revulsion was palpable. It was a pretty innocuous observation; if someone said to me that an ancestor may have had some effect on my moral development, I wouldn’t bother arguing the point, because of course it’s possible. You accused me of stating that Judaism had definitely had a dominant impact on your moral development but no, no definitely, no dominant. I restated my position clearly, repeatedly, and you accused me again, repeatedly, deliberately misconstruing what I was saying. You talked about things that might have affected your moral development in theory, including at one point I believe a crawling snake, but you couldn’t bring yourself to say the same thing about your ancestors’ Judaism. This wasn’t a short exchange. It was the longest list of comments I’ve ever had on a post, 35 more than the closest runner-up, and most of those 35 were yours and mine on this topic.
I find myself approaching a conclusion I have never, to my recollection, reached about another OSer in the couple of years plus that I’ve been blogging here. I am trying to avoid reaching this particular conclusion but it is becoming increasingly difficult. This is not a conclusion I want to reach.
I suspect your reaction to reading this will not be introspection, even though you may not be aware of the impression you’re leaving, or how and why you’re leaving it.
I ardently hope you prove me wrong.
Kosh, I'm sorry o disappoint you, but your persistent excavation of my personality leads me, not to further introspection but laughing out loud. By now you are no doubt thoroughly familiar with whatever relevant details I can offer. My revulsion with Israeli history of terroristic expulsion of original inhabitants is based on facts which I gradually discovered way after I reached maturity and has nothing to do with my upbringing or my ancestry except as I was accommodated in my childhood to a sense of general decency and fairness. I have since gained some insight into the origins of Zionism and its conceptual architecture and discovered that the initial expulsion of the huge numbers of original inhabitants of Palestine through terrorism was an inherent element of its conception and design. If you think that only Jews have attitudes of decency and fairness and compassion I am afraid you are grossly mistaken.
That the current behavior of Israel is unacceptable on widely accepted humane and legal principles is nothing I have to explicate or defend. I am sure you are as widely read as I if not more on that matter. That Israel has encouraged immigration to Israel by the Jewish diaspora has, no doubt, some element of mercy, but it is obvious the major motivation is to offset the multiplication of the local Arab Israeli residents which threatens Israeli prejudice on being an exclusively Jewish state, a racist proclivity that would not be tolerated in any other nation. But Israel is granted much leeway in this matter since the Nazi Holocaust granted them something of a forgiveness for certain excesses, a leeway they treasure as one of their most valuable social prizes. This in no way condones the Nazi viciousness and immense stupidity but it also does not extend license for Israel to behave badly. And there is excessive evidence that indeed they have behaved and are behaving badly. I need no childhood indoctrination to clearly see that.
But to get back to the main issue, I believe we are both intensely incensed over the death of the Israeli athletes. I sincerely doubt that if, in some neutral way, such as a fire or an airplane crash, the Israeli team met their ends, there would be any problem in publicly regretting their demise at or close to the time of the disaster. But the element of terrorism is deeply imbedded in this catastrophe and this is why I feel it is a crucial element that makes this discussion so contentious. It is a matter of taking sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and I can comprehend the reluctance in doing this since neither Israel nor the Palestinians have clean hands in the matter. That is why I felt a general condemnation of terror would be particularly appropriate with the open exhibition of the Israeli athlete's deaths as a tragedy to make the argument poignant. That the whole business is almost half a century in the past and much blood and hatred has accumulated in the interim does require some mental accommodation. But the raw enthusiasm for brutal terrorist activities by several dominant world powers, it seems to me, deserves whatever condemnation that can be expressed internationally and it should be so proclaimed. And this, in no way, demeans the death of the fine athletes.
Where to start?
Let's start with the contention that the IOC shouldn't take sides in an event in which one of the parties in a dispute used their venue for murder. The following is in caps so whoever reads this thread finds it:
THE ISSUE IS NOT ONLY WHAT BLACK SEPTEMBER DID TO THE ISRAELI OLYMPIANS, IT'S WHAT BLACK SEPTEMBER DID TO THE OLYMPICS.
That the IOC is so antisemitic that they would refuse to defend their own event from murder, just because the victims were Israeli, is mind-boggling.
Your sole answer to this appears to be that this is irrelevant because you're not a sports fan.
That doesn't even qualify as a nice try.
Past that, it would help if you actually read what I write rather than what you wish I wrote. "That Israel has encouraged immigration to Israel by the Jewish diaspora..." is what you wrote in answer to "They accept more non-Jewish refugees than any of the nations around them." What part of "non-Jewish" don't you understand?
Another example: "If you think that only Jews have attitudes of decency and fairness and compassion I am afraid you are grossly mistaken." Yes, and if I think that the moon is made of green cheese I am also grossly mistaken. Got any other ideas you'd care to ascribe erroneously to me? That makes a wonderful strategem. Cheap and unethical, but wonderful.
This next one isn't a misquoting of me; you apparently came up with this gem on your own: "a racist proclivity that would not be tolerated in any other nation." Excuse me? A racist proclivity that would not be tolerated in any other nation on what planet? How many Islamicist states do you think there are? All of them are more racist than Israel is, as are most of the Muslim majority states that aren't technically Islamicist, as are a number of states that aren't Muslim majority, such as China. One of my biggest problems with your reasoning is that racism apparently only counts when Jews do it. Let me retract that: My single biggest problem with your reasoning is that racism apparently only counts when Jews do it.
A conclusion that is saved from in and of itself being racist only by the fact that Jews aren't a race.
I can't figure out if you're that cynical or merely deluded.
Are you completely oblivious to the way that
Arabs treat Jews?
Palestinians treat Jews?
Syrians treat Palestinians (assassination)?
Chinese treat Tibetans?
Sudanese from the North/South treat each other?
Turks treat Kurds?
Iraquis treat Kurds?
Burmese treat Shans?
Those don't seem to attract your attention in the least bit.
Your question indicates that I think the Israelis are innocent. As I have said dozens of times on OS, I don't.
However, I will answer your question, in two ways:
1. Depends which Arabs, though it also very much depends on which Israelis.
2. Compared to what?
1. The Arabs who have Israeli citizenship are treated like a lot of people treat minorities in the US - in a substandard fashion but with rights. They have, for example, parliamentary representation. I do not condone the extent to which their treatment is unequal. It is a civil rights issue and should be addressed as one, though it does not remotely approach Apartheid. Not remotely. The Arabs who do not have Israeli citizenship are treated, by and large, like an occupied population, because they are. The primary reason they are is that Israel can't figure out how to stop occupying them safely. The current Israeli government is not putting a whole lot of effort into trying to figure that out, which is the main reason I detest the current Israeli government, which I have stated repeatedly.
2. Having said that I do not approve of how the Israeli treat Arabs (collectively; there are individuals and groups within Israel who are far better about this than others, including the representatives of my own Reform Judaism movement), we get to the issue of Israeli Exceptionalism in Accountability. In the United Nations, for example, Israel is singled out for how Israel treats Arabs. I have no objection to criticism but I have huge objections to Singled Out. Israeli behavior toward minorities, as bad as it is, is better than average for the neighborhood. As far as some international human rights scales I've read, Israel in some areas treats the occupied Arabs better than their own government does, and that's before we get to how that government treats its own minorities, when it allows them at all. Comparatively speaking, Israel has civil rights problems with Arabs while the Palestinian territories - and, additionally at the very least, Saudi Arabia - don't allow Jews as residents at all. When it comes to killing civilians of any kind, Israel doesn't currently hold a candle to the neighboring Assad regime in Syria. If we measure acceptance of refugees, Israel accepts refugees of other religions and most of the other area nations don't.
Sure, I'm aware that Israel's treatment of Arabs isn't good. However, I'm also aware that Israel is judged by one standard while everyone else if judged by another. When that stops, I'll stop defending Israel. While it continues, I'll accuse its practitioners of antisemitism, because they are guilty of exactly that.
The argument that Israel is innocent has not been made here.
Once again, answering an argument I haven't made.
Might as well keep your track record going.
Israel applies which double standards to itself with pride?
Israelis criticize Israel constantly. The Israeli press, a freer press than anywhere else in the Middle East, criticizes Israel constantly.
I've heard an argument along these lines before. Because Israel claims to be democratic, tolerant, etc., it is guilty of hypocrisy. The trouble with this argument is that the way to avoid responsibility is to aim low enough. In other words, if you aspire to be a murderer and you are a murderer, you are not guilty of hypocrisy, making you more moral than those who aspire to more but do not reach their aspirations quite as successfully.
I'm afraid you were right about where your morality did not come from.
It has been forty years, exactly, since that murder and it is that sad anniversary that people are asking to have commemorated.
I've read your comments. They add up to a "no" for these men, for these murders. That is sad.
And when I remember, with a moment of silence, for example the death of JFK, I'm not remembering the event and his death as an example of his unfortunate death, as if he died of a cold, and I'm not remembering all victims of "unfortunate" deaths. I'm honouring one man and I'm noting as well that he was murdered.
I suspect the reason people are having a problem, including you, with this request is because of the country from which the sportsmen came. I suspect you know that is true too - and know it is true of yourself as well.
And before you ask it: Yes, if the situation had been the other way around and Israelis had murdered Palestinians at the Olympics, I'd want a moment of silence.
There is no honor in being a murder victim. Social forces are always in action in society and the collisions of hatreds with actual living beings are the ricochets of forces in action. Israel is responsible for innumerable murders out of terrorism and the impacts of those acts set in motion equal counteraction. As the USA has learned in its military operations, violence generates counter violence. I have no doubts those Israeli athletes were not responsible for the originating hatreds and the resulting violence and I am greatly saddened for their demise but they stood as representatives of Israel and thereby were seen as justifiable targets for counterviolence. I have no sympathy for any of those violences and find them all inexcusable and that is why a plea for all these violences to be stopped in the name of decency and sanity seems relevant to me. You seem totally unapproachable in my regard for the injustices of all these deaths which I find unfortunate. That those athletes died is not a singular event that stands alone but one link in a chain of horrors and that chain must be broken.
I do not believe that you would approve the memorialization of any Israeli killed anywhere for any reason if that Israeli were the only person being memorialized. And you seem to think that the Israeli government's actions justify this stance.
I also have no reason to believe you would hold any other nationality to this standard, except perhaps the United States, which doesn't suffer from this issue. After all, the Olympics commemorated the 911 victims with a minute of silence, and they weren't even Olympians like the Israelis were.
I am not saying there is HONOUR in being a murder victim, but I do believe in HONOURING murder victims, just as YOU claim to want to honour victims of violence and unjustified deaths as well. (BTW, I believe in honouring victims in lots of situations. Where you got the idea I didn't, I do not know.)
I am talking here to only ONE THING at this point. I want a moment of silence for 11 men who were murdered at the Olympics. You don't. End of issue.
And I would feel the same about ANY sportsman or woman who was murdered at the Olympics also being honoured should, God forbid, that ever happen.
I suspect you just can't get past their being from Israel. And you pretty much say that, albeit, indirectly when you wrote:
"I have no doubts those Israeli athletes were not responsible for the originating hatreds and the resulting violence and I am greatly saddened for their demise but they stood as representatives of Israel and thereby were seen as justifiable targets for counterviolence. "
Pathetic.
When it comes to Israel, moral confusion often reigns.
Okay. No honouring of victims. Fine. You got it.
You are, I think, being intellectually dishonest. I think your problems is with Israeli victims. I think you won't say it directly, but you come damned close with your comments about these victims.
Just drop the game-playing. Please.
And your implication that funerals are something I enjoy is truly disgusting.
http://www.change.org/petitions/international-olympic-committee-minute-of-silence-at-the-2012-london-olympics#
I'm happy you reject that. I felt it was disgusting too.
To honor somebody who died you must know more about them than that they died under frightful circumstances. Nobody deserves to die and nevertheless everybody does. Just think about this totally insincere and phoney ceremony you are so enthusiastic about. A multi-thousand crowd anxious to get on with the events is asked to bow their heads for a minute in silence. What possibly could be going on in their heads? Perhaps "Who the hell were these poor slobs trapped by a bunch of murderous maniacs?" Or "I hope my head is bowed low enough so no one could criticize me". Or "I hope I don't sneeze or cough or do something worse." Or "How the hell long is a minute?" Or a thousand other things that have absolutely nothing to do with honor or any knowledge of the athletes or anything else appropriate. Is this a worthwhile effort? It certainly doesn't seem so to me. I despise insincerity and foolish ceremonies.
I'm happy you reject that. I felt it was disgusting too.
I have no idea what you are talking about above.
I have no problem, philosophically or otherwise honouring murder victims - and others.
I think the Olympic Committee should honour these men.
I am clear on this. You disagree. Fine.
I hope others will sign the petition.
Thank you for the link. I signed, and I left the following comment:
"It is not appropriate to refuse to take sides in an episode of a dispute where one of the disputing parties uses your event for murder. The only reason you'd consider refusing this request is because Israel is involved. The end result is that instead of avoiding the taking of sides in this dispute, you are taking sides: On the side of the murderers."
Thank you for spotlighting it.
Rated
Andrea
I'm not surprised that it was denied.
I don't know whether it would have happened to a country other than Israel.
The fact that it is Israel makes the possiblity of further violence possible if there is a demonstration such as a moment of silence, since there is still no serious effort to establish peace by either Israel or its enemies.
The last time there was a serious attempt at peace it got Anwar Sadat killed.
As I think of it, a moment of silence would probably be honored if, for example, the IRA had killed British athletes forty years ago. r
The last time there was a serious attempt at peace it got Yitzchak Rabin killed. The time before that got Anwar Sadat killed. In both cases, it was by hard-liners within their own countries.
Barbara Joanne,
You're more than welcome. As I have said until I am blue in the face, or perhaps in the fingers here, I believe that a double standard applied to Israel adds up to bigotry. I am not against criticism of Israel, I am against extra criticism of Israel for equivalent wrongs and particularly against those who hate Israel getting a free pass for their misconduct.
That's the IOC.
At that point, they had two problems:
1. A ton of money was involved. This is probably the biggest reason for their inactivity at the time.
2. They wouldn't have wanted to give the terrorists too much influence over the games. Someone on the IOC might have reasoned that decreasing their impact might make what they were doing less effective.
However, one certainly wonders what would have happened if the hostages had been, for example, Soviet.
The international climate in 1972 was quite a bit different. The world was mostly polarized between American and Soviet camps, though neither was remotely monolithic. (The USSR and China were not on good terms - Nixon had to tell Brezhnev that the US wouldn't tolerate a Soviet nuclear strike on China.) This was before the Arab Oil Embargo, when the Arab world started to flex its muscles. Now things look considerably different, particularly in the UN, which basically comes out with anti-Israel proclamations constantly.
You bring out the best in me with posts like this...
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