koshersalaami

koshersalaami
Birthday
October 01
Bio
Male, Jewish, in my fifties, married with kids (well, at this point I guess that should be "kid"). Thanks to Lezlie for avatar artwork - sort of a translation of my screen name. "Salaam" is peace in Arabic, hence the peace sign. (No, my name doesn't mean "hunk of meat" and yes, the pun is intentional.)

Koshersalaami's Links

Salon.com
JULY 17, 2012 6:17PM

ReFormat: A Dozen Underhanded Arguing Tactics

Rate: 11 Flag
Two posts ago, I said I'd change my post if someone came up with a better idea. Margaret Feike got me thinking. The trouble with the original is that it leaves the impression that I go into arguments with a bunch of rules in my head and that I expect anyone to do that. Neither is true. So, while I stand by what I was trying to present as standards, I don't stand by the way I presented that collection. This is probably a better idea.

The ideas here are no different than in two posts ago so, if you don't have time, ignore this post. I'm just keeping my word.



Different things piss off different people on OS. I know what gets to me, but what gets to me isn’t usually the same set of things that seems to get to others. What gets to me most is when I see what I view as violations of intellectual integrity, so I’m thinking that maybe I should explore that topic. I have my own ideas but they are of course subject to change; after all, being subject to change is part of having intellectual integrity. These are observations about how people argue without integrity. They aren’t preconceived. I came up with them as I wrote the other post.

I am not saying that I never do any of these. I am saying that I’m wrong when I do.

Don't be taken in by people using these.

1. Their priority is to look right, not be right. If your priority is to be right and you find you’re wrong, you change positions and admit your error, even if it’s embarrassing. If your priority is to look right, then being wrong, even in your own eyes, can be OK.

2. They assume that if part of a position is wrong, the whole thing must be wrong. Not everyone is wrong about everything. What’s right gets determined point by point.

3. They condemn positions before bothering to figure out what those positions actually consist of. There may be others who share some views with me but I’m not responsible for their views, only my own, so don’t assume I hold views I haven’t expressed.

4. They base their views less on their own standards than on the object to which those standards are being applied. In other words, they attack their enemies because they’re their enemies, not because those enemies are wrong in any given instance. . On a macro level rather than an interpersonal level, a public admission that the party you favor is doing something wrong (or the party you don’t is doing something right) may be indicated. Generally speaking, I advise it, if for no other reason than that such an admission will enhance your reputation for intellectual integrity which, under the circumstances, you’ll deserve.

5. They don’t answer the question. They avoid it, they approximate and hope their audience won’t notice, they use the question as an excuse for talking points rather than actually answering it. If you want to argue with integrity, answer it. Really answer it. Preferably all of it. If there is something invalid about the question, explain why. If that invalid aspect makes the question unanswerable, explain why. Running from a question can be an indicator of intellectual cowardice.

6. They discredit a source, hoping that that will discredit that source’s argument.  It doesn’t. Even child-molesting axe murderers can be right about some things. Logic stands on its own. People who get a fact wrong don’t necessarily get all their facts wrong, so there is a difference between discrediting a source’s fact and discrediting all of that source’s facts. (If a source is found to make up facts on a regular basis, the argument doesn’t necessarily get discredited automatically but the burden of proof can shift.) Opinions and facts can sometimes be confused; separating the two is very important when determining the veracity of a source. Trying to discredit an argument by discrediting its source is another indicator of intellectual cowardice. Notice a theme here?
 
7. They discredit a source’s friends or associates, hoping that will discredit that source’s argument.  Nope. Note even close. Guilt By Association is nothing but a cheap, ultimately cowardly tactic.

8. They speculate about a source’s motivation, hoping that will discredit that source’s argument.
There’s a fairly low probability of their being psychic. If that’s what their argument depends on, face it: their position sucks..

9. They engage in Logic By Association. The fact that I harbor any given views does not mean you know why I harbor them, and I am not responsible for your assumptions on this topic – you are, nor am I responsible for the logic used by my allies. I am strictly responsible for my own. Logic By Association comes pretty close to conjecture about a source’s motivation.

10. They display phony outrage, which is the antithesis of integrity. If you’re angry about something, make the case about that. Phony outrage is mainly a distraction. (And what does deliberate distraction indicate?) Can you name a single person in the United States whose primary objection to President Obama is that they think he was born in Kenya? As in: “Aside from that, even if I disagree with him, it’s not like I hate the guy”? Enough with the distractions and get to your real issue.

11. They hide the weaknesses in their arguments because they’re more concerned with winning than with finding truth.

12. They tear the crap out of a position without being prepared to defend an alternative. Attacking a position is easy; very few positions are perfect. However, it’s sometimes a useless exercise because imperfect solutions are frequently the best available. Expecting perfection from an opponent’s position when you’re not willing to expect it from your own is ultimately hypocritical.

These apply to real issue arguments, not elections. Elections are different because integrity usually doesn’t work, though it can once in a while. One of the main reasons integrity doesn’t work in elections is that people are less like to support a candidate for an issue stand than they are to oppose a candidate for one. If a candidate is fine on five issues but wrong on a hot button issue, where are you focusing? So, the best way to win elections is to stay as ambiguous as possible because the number of actual stands you take increases the number of enemies you’re likely to make. Integrity is preferable if you can handle it but understand that those attacking you aren’t likely to have much. That’s one reason I’m not sure I could run for office – I’d get too frustrated by the process.

On OS, on the other hand, integrity is a good idea.

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Views are personal. Not universal. We all see and feel. That is what opinion is about. What the writer feels, not what you want him or her to feel or see. Integrity is personal.
You described Fox News as far as I'm concerned. As usual, you display an unusual ability to elucidate common sense and rational argument.
This is good, too.

Does #3 include those people who tell you what you think and believe and want respecting x because of your view on y or your label L? I hate that.
Ande,
This isn't about feelings but about cases.

Lea,
Pretty much. Their brand of conservativism leads to this inevitably because they don't have a leg to stand on playing straight.

Nerd Cred,
Exactly. I hate it too. That's why it's #3.
I appreciate you posting this, and also the way you express these sentiments. All very grownup and rational. Saying that, I can't help thinking that what really seems to enliven OS, along with all other media and the politics that is its major subject, is the mud-wrestling, roller-derby, slime-throwing that lets writers get in touch with their inner bully or victim.

Just a quiet thought on a very quiet summer night.
Lea has it right (as do you). r.
Kosher

Once again, as a “non-Logical” thinker, I'd like to give my viewpoint on “Debate”.
As conflict, by my definitions, there are two main types of “debate”-I would call them colloquially, “Argument' and “Discussion”

An “Argument” in my usage is the “Professional Wrestling” arena of logic. Big Boasts, big Hype, no search for actual truth, simply a morality play in which “Good Triumphs over Evil” It's a Game, points scored and winners and losers declared, to the victors the spoils.

In my usage, a “Discussion” is a mutual pondering after a solution to a problem. Ideally, everybody wins what they need. On a personal experience note, when I was much younger, I always loved to date athletic young ladies who enjoyed wrestling (Think Ellie May Clampett) . We were usually able to come to some sort of mutually satisfactory conclusion to our conflicts. In fact, if we started out “mad” we were usually quite happy with each other by the time things sorted out.

Rules of logic don't apply to the “truths” of Analog Analysis. Analog analysis is the concretion of repetitive or vivid experience. Logic is the manipulation of those concretions as “symbols” , and error is inherent in the translation. Each individuals concretion of experience is different, so the meanings of his symbols, his words, are different and unique from anyone else's. When I say “horse”, we can all picture some sort of four legged transport. But your horse will not be the same color as mine, let alone share many other characteristics. Add to that that what I said was “Whores” when you heard “horse” and we have a completely incomprehensible level of confusion. We can “Argue” about this as long as we wish, and it is either a waste of time, or an amusing way to while away an afternoon in parody and burlesque of “problem Solving”. If somebody insists on “Arguing” with me, I'm going to regard it as “Sport” and use the arguer as “Sporting Equipment”.
Vide WWBBD? ( What Would Bugs Bunny Do?)

I've been known to “pounce” on argument simply for the sport of it. My culture excelled in such amusements- like playing kittens, whose cute little growls and pounces are designed to turn them into killers.

On the whole these days I'd rather discuss. The key to discussion is to respect your opponent as a peer, as a “quantum of Free Will” It is not either necessary or relevant for you to understand WHY your opponent believes that the moon is made of green cheese, or that guns in the hands of private citizens lessen crime rates. It is only necessary THAT you understand that you are dealing with a fellow “Unit of Free Will” who possesses the same RIGHT to his opinions and pursuit of his individual Happiness that you do (NB- if you don't think you have a right to your opinion or pursuit of your version of happiness, I'm sorry, you are not possessed of a “Quantum of Free Will” and are thereby banned from participation in our system of government. )

Skypixie0 had an excellent post about civility in debate. Civility is the whole ball of wax in terms of discussion. Even if I think you are shit house rat crazy, if I'm treating you as someone I want to agree with and work with, I must respect the fact that you hold the opinions that you hold, and you hold them for what are to you, good reason. We can reach mutual benefit and satisfaction from that starting point. I may even explore your experience and be able to understand “why” you hold the opinions, and perhaps even point out to you flaws in your experiential modeling that will bring you to agree with me- or at least not see me as a threat. You may do the same with my experiential model. We will communicate- fortify together. Communion of this sort is the true meaning of the knowing of someone “In the Biblical sense”. Not just intercourse, but communion.

If you start out by treating me as “Sporting Equipment”, and continue to do so after I've made my best attempts to communicate, then I can tell you, the game of Rat Hockey has begun, and I will treat you as “The Puck”.
I know you're not talking about feelings here, Kosh, but I'm with Ande on this. I think too many of us (maybe all of us?) start from the gut, with a limbic reaction to stimuli, and build a rational explanation/defense from there. I believe it's the rare person who has developed neocortex thinking to a level where abstract reasoning is predominate. Not saying the limbic rationalizers are stupid. Not by any measure, if only because I would be calling myself stupid, as well. Many become so erudite and sophisticated with their use of pure logic they construct arguments that appear rooted in dispassionate fact and nearly air tight. It takes someone with equally potent debating skills to successfully expose the cracks in these arguments - or an innocent child pointing out the truth of the emperor's nudity.

I heard a discussion on NPR awhile back about a study that theorizes humans developed abstract language not to process and explain the wonders presented by their expanding brains but to give them an advantage in the vitally competitive struggle for survival within the hominid communities. Not sure even all of the brightest among us have gotten past that primal drive. Most arguments I witness (and seldom feel compelled to join) are geared for persuasion and not exploration of ideas.

I've been fascinated to see in the comment feed over the past couple of days what appears to be a prolonged exchange between you and Jan Sand, whose cerebral skills I also admire greatly, but have been reluctant to open that comment thread again. I've a notion the discussion there has settled into a war of energy attrition without either point of view advancing beyond dazzling rhetorical innovation - which, of course, is nothing to sneeze at but which can be relatively wasteful of time.

(Speaking of time, I don't have the heart to scroll back thru this comment looking for typos and brain farts, and I beg your indulgence if you find gaps or syntactical flaws in my own attempts at logic.
Oops. "Predominate" was supposed to be "predominant."
I'm with Andy on this one, except the integrity being personal part. Most of the political stuff I read here, and I admit I tend to steer clear of most of it, is opinion. Opinion is that person's view of the world from their speeding train. Ten people can look at the same set of facts and form 10 different opinions based on their life history, group affiliations and probably even their hormone levels. R
many times here i have seen dustups over a clear misinterpretation of intent. this is why if someone like me,whose writing skills are not no a very high level,has to re-read what i'm saying before posting,while imagining i'm face to face.which leads me most times to a re-write.for me the lack of body language,facial expression,tone of voice,makes mis interpretation much easier.others don't have the same problem,apparently.of course,this all goes out the window after a few shots and beers....heh-heh...
as of Steel Breeze 9:37 AM - if you commented after that, I haven't read it yet.

When I said to Ande that this was not about feelings but about cases, I can't argue with feelings, nor would I be stupid enough to try. That would not be a valid approach. One doesn't control one's feelings, so I don't expect people to be responsible for theirs.

The funny thing about the comment thread on this post is that it looks more like a comment thread that should have been directed at the post I edited to get here, which is why I edited it. In my original post I said "abiding by these rules is a good idea." For the reasons you enumerate (you being plural), I did a ReFormat and said, instead: "Watch out for people who throw the following at you because the following is either less than logical, less than honest, or both."

Token,
I'm not paid by anyone to hold a position. My attitude is If you can persuade me that I'm wrong, I'm firstly willing to find that out and secondly willing to change. See #1 above. Or see the fact that I wrote this post in the first place - I ended the post of which this is a revision by saying I'd change if someone gave me a reason to. Margaret Feike gave me a reason to, so I did. Truth first. Winning is irrelevant. Unless you're running for office, which I'm not. By the way, you are not a non-logical thinker by any stretch of the imagination. You many not be most comfortable there but logic is not a foreign language to you. There are at least a few I know on OS about whom I would not say that.

CM,
I don't think I'd recommend reopening the last thread for the reason you specified. It is in danger of turning vitriolic. It has now reached the point where it has exceeded by far the number of comments I've ever gotten on a post, and the point of the discussion has zero to do with the post's topic. That discussion is at an impasse; for the time being I will be polite and not tell you why I think that is.

SB,
Misinterpretation of intent is a common one. Related, and also common, is differing sets of assumptions. If I'm teaching about something here, one of my main goals is to address assumptions as I think it's more important to do that than to address actual questions because questions are often generated by faulty assumptions. I find that the lack of body language, etc. usually makes things easier - unless someone's kidding, at which point it doesn't.
Chiming in late, ?and/but(*) as always, appreciatively!''

Thanks -- "once again as always", Kosh, for another splendidly articulated, reasoned, and supported post! And to all the commenters. These posts and comments are certainly "prime fruit" for me currently when I log in with Open Salon ... especially these days while my Open Salon postings are so afflicted by my personal-access problems!

To revert, for a moment, to Kosh's opener to the previous post -- having just received an e-mail from someone ... nominally about "politics": "As it happens", I've been spending the last too-many hours at my computer keyboard trying to figure out what (if anything) can be done as to conversation -- or simple civility -- between or among people whose fundamental outlook is experienced (by me, in this instance!) as ill-informed and intemperate. [See the "Ande thread" as to feelings vs. logical thinking?]. I confess that a few minutes ago I just "gave up" on this person, sending a kind of ?"Dear John"? e-mail because of my semse of the hopelessness any genuine convergence of either/both "feeling" and thought-plus-facts could or will ever happen in this case.

So "mes apologies" for such a long comment, and please, everyone -- Compliment Me On My New Avatar!! [An OS friend installed it for me just a "coupla" days ago because I, such a "cyberdolt"!, thought it looked enough like "podunkmarte"'s that maybe people could recognise me here again!

R+
In the time I've been here I've only had one person come out against civility as the default mode, telling me that cilivity had to be earned. As should be apparent, I don't agree. I'm big on civility. Frankly, when I get annoyed on OS, most people's reaction is "that's annoyed?"

A Dear John letter in that case is a good idea. I take letters like the one I reacted to in the last post because I get to answer some of that crap for people who may actually buy into it.
I couldn't resist. I went back and checked that thread. Several of the comments remind me of the approach my wife takes in arguing with me, in which adamant ironclad logic is repeated ad nauseam irregardless of a false premise she holds with pitbull tenacity as a priori no matter what rebuttals are tried. It brings to mind the old saw about the man alone in the woods while his wife is nowhere within sight or sound - if he says something, is he still wrong?
You got it. Repeated, rebutted, rebuttal ignored, repeated. Gets to wearin' thin. Has other consequences, too.
Loss of respect being the most important of them.
Nail on the head you hit
Still catching up. Rated. I've bookmarked this to refer back to in later discussions; it's good inventory.