koshersalaami

koshersalaami
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October 01
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Male, Jewish, in my fifties, married with kids (well, at this point I guess that should be "kid"). Thanks to Lezlie for avatar artwork - sort of a translation of my screen name. "Salaam" is peace in Arabic, hence the peace sign. (No, my name doesn't mean "hunk of meat" and yes, the pun is intentional.)

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Salon.com
APRIL 4, 2012 8:54AM

Sick of Hearing about the Holocaust from Israel?

Rate: 20 Flag

This is edited from a comment made on Jonathan Wolfman's post about the Toulouse murders last night. Given the heat of the moment, it's a little, well, pointed. Reprinted here at his suggestion.

[Jonathan was kind enough to point out that not everyone reading this will know who/what Likud is. Likud is the current political party in power in Israel, the party of Benjamin Netanyahu. They are more conservative and hard-line than their main historic alternative, Labor. They started out pre-independence as an organization called the Irgun. While I'm at it, AIPAC stands for American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the major American organization that lobbies on Israel's behalf in Washington.]

I've heard a lot about how Jews and, in particular, Israel, keep hitting the world over the head with the Holocaust, like it justifies anything and everything. What you really have to know about Israel and the Holocaust is that when Israel was founded, the Holocaust was both recent enough and traumatic enough that Israel derived certain lessons from it that are fixed in the Israeli psyche. Some of these lessons may not apply any longer in our eyes but that's not important here; the lessons still apply in theirs.

The importance of the Holocaust when understanding Israel comes down to three lessons (expressed in the first person because the Holocaust applied to Jews rather than Israelis given that Israelis didn't officially exist yet - and yes, I really do understand that Jews were not the only Holocaust victims):

1. The last time we didn’t take crazy threats seriously, one out of every three of us got murdered, so take crazy threats seriously, particularly when someone starts building Camps. Or Nukes.

2. While we were being murdered, we didn’t get a whole lot of outside help. Some countries stepped up on behalf of their own Jewish communities, notably Denmark and, in some ways, Serbia (which is why the Israelis didn’t come down on the Serbs during the Bosnian massacres like American Jews did because American Jews were not mostly aware of that history - Israel did, however, take in Bosnian refugees), but most help came from isolated individuals. Not, for example, from the United States, which turned away refugees fleeing Europe and refused to bomb the rail lines to the Death Camps during the war. So, the lesson learned was: We cannot afford to rely on anyone else for our survival, so develop your own contingencies because we can’t afford the alternative.

3. Don’t let anti-Semitism sit unopposed because it can grow into an unimaginably lethal monster if you leave it alone.

You want the Holocaust to go away? OK. Here’s exactly how:

1. Don’t let people make crazy threats and write them off as crazy threats. Hold them responsible for making crazy threats. Even in mosques.

2. Make it completely clear while you’re fighting for Israel to get the Hell out of every inch of the West Bank that the flip side of this is that Hamas and Hezbollah will not be permitted to get rid of Israel under any circumstances and, in the event they try, particularly if Israel is making a real effort where the West Bank is concerned, you will support Israel’s military efforts at survival. This also goes for Iran. Don’t rely on AIPAC to do this. You have to do it.

3. Don’t let anti-Semitism sit unopposed because it is bigotry and never justifiable. While you’re fighting with whatever stupid-ass policy Likud comes up with this week, don’t allow anti-Semitism to grow unopposed based on what you’re angry about. No matter how awful Likud gets, it doesn’t justify oppressing or killing Jews elsewhere in the world, which is a viewpoint you not only have to believe, it’s a viewpoint you have to support. In public.

There it is. Your blueprint. Help Israel unlearn the Three Lessons. Then the Holocaust won’t matter. In fact, then you’ll solve the Middle East’s biggest problem, assuming that the other side does something with concessions other than using them to kill more Israelis.

And you will really solve it, because Israel's ability to sell its intransigence on issues such as West Bank settlements to its supporters as valid is based primarily on its ability to show that the Three Lessons still apply. Even its internal supporters.

 

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I just wish I could be this articulate and pointed on thia complex of issues. Rated.
Thanks. Sometimes when it's late at night and I'm annoyed enough I think straight.
I don’t think you can really discuss Israel without providing the context of the Holocaust. As it is to often I see the “Palestinians” portrayed in the media as some unoffending group of third world refuges displaced by the wealthy “Crusading” Jews and their fundamentalist ally's in America. How many people in the debate even know who the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was? It was Haj Amin al-Husseini who declared war on all Jews in the first place when he allied himself with Hitler and shored up the faltering Nazi’s by helping recruit Muslims for the Waffen-SS. This man is considered the George Washington of the Palestinian people and he was a psychotic butcher that deeply admired Hitler and groveled at his feet to serve him. I don’t think we can leave that out of the conversation.
First, a disclaimer: I didn't yet read the discussion on Jonathan's blog, so this my comment may seem a non-sequitur. Responding to this post only:

"Don’t let people make crazy threats and write them off as crazy threats. Hold them responsible for making crazy threats.” Even in their religious venues.

One good way to assess the wisdom of any such policy is to ask how much control it gives to which players on the global stage. In practice, this would allow the most irresponsible, extreme actors to manipulate our foreign policy. We would end up spending significant amounts of resources, energy, and good will, while the people doing the threatening need to invest no more resources than it takes to talk. On top of that, we will look foolish, scared, and weak in the eyes of those who see through the extremists’ bluster.

Another good measure of whether something is wise policy is to ask what our world be like if every nation everywhere followed the same policy. If all the nations of the Middle East also follow this advice, how would they respond to remarks being made by the most extreme ultra-orthodox in Israel and elsewhere?

I'm also a bit uncomprehending about the idea that we "let" people in other nations make crazy threats within their respective houses of worship, or that it is somehow within our power to decide to withhold this permission/allowance. Heck, we cannot even stop the crazies in our own nation--even our own churches and synagogues!--from saying stupid belligerent things.
An excellent post. Thank you!

I would like to make one clarification - during the Shoah, 1/3 of Jews worldwide were murdered; however in Europe, where the Shoah began, 80% of the Jewish population was murdered. This would have been 100% but Germany was defeated before this would happen.

Also, the Shoah was NOT confined to Europe. Concentration camps were built, and Jews and others were murdered, in Libya, Morocco, and Tunesia. The leading Muslim figure in Jerusalem, Amin al-Husseini, publicly supported genocide of the Jewish people and formed Arab death squads to kill Jews in Europe and North Africa; the only thing that stopped widespread genocide was Jewish self-defense and British occupation of pre-state Israel. The fact that many, if not most, secular and religious Muslim leaders today continue to support genocide is the primary reason for the continuation of the Arab-Israeli conflict.
Book recommendation: At the Entrance to the Garden of Eden by Yossi Klein Halevi (2001, HarperCollins.) Halevi articulates his own insights into fear, anger, and how nations such as Israel can take their rightful place among the world's nations. What reminded me of it just now were Halevi's thoughts about how and why the Jews have made more progress dealing with their Holocaust than the Aremenians have made with theirs, even though the Jewish Holocaust is more recent.
I'm nowhere near versed well enough on the issue to pontificate, but what I do know justifies in my mind opposition to the West Bank settlements. They're clearly an aggravation that undermines those Middle East leaders who have reluctantly agreed to the notion that Israel has a right to exist - a huge and dangerous concession by them. To lose their support over this thorny issue would be dreadful in the larger context.
Let me add Bulgaria to the countries that did not capitulate to the Holocaust. The powers there shielded and protected their Jewish population. The synagogue and an intact Jewish community remains. Bulgaria should be first and foremost, and yet most people do not even recognize it, partly because its as usurped into the Soviet Union after WW2.
Jack is spot on.
I also appreciate deeply the other comments here.
Kosher, any person with a conscience or any human decency finds anti-Semitism unconscionable, wrong, reprehensible. There is no way for any of us to completely fathom the full extent of the horrors of the Holocaust, and there is no way for us to go back and make the past different, or to make it disappear. It is there forever.

What I am concerned about is that people from the US are throwing fuel into the Mideast fire, and supporting a right wing agenda in Israel that even many Israeli's don't support. haaretz.com

Some of the same people here in the US who are supporting that right wing agenda in Israel are also sponsoring US candidates who show the kind of intolerance, bigotry, racism, divisiveness here at home, which we don't want, and which is the lesson we should have learned from the Holocaust.

If we didn't learn that lesson--that racism, bigotry, fanning hatred and exclusion towards anyone is intolerable for all of us--and we don't apply it in our present lives, what's the point of teaching our children about the Holocaust?

I believe in the two-state settlement. Over the years, polls have shown that Israeli and Palestinian majorities are both in favor of a negotiated two-state settlement. Will having the far right wing gain more power in Israel and also in the US help the future Israeli generations in any way? I don't believe so.

Politics makes strange bedfellows, but not all bedfellows have the same repercussions, and we should choose them wisely, whatever our goals may be.
Jack and Carmella,
Thank you for the history. It's not a part I know much about.

Karen,
You can't control it. But you can't just accept it either. It has to be acknowledged, in public, as part of the problem.

Chicken Maaan,
I can't pack a couple of years' worth of posts into a single one, so this of course leaves a whole lot out. I am against the settlements, period; I see them as an obstacle to peace and as undermining the most cooperative partner we have there at the moment: Fatah, or the Palestinian Authority in charge of the West Bank (as opposed to Hamas in Gaza). I have said repeatedly elsewhere that regardless of who is right or wrong, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis are going anywhere, so the best solution is the one that will keep the most people on both sides satisfied, which is a two-state solution, settlements either abolished, traded for or paid for, a corner of East Jerusalem to serve as Palestinian capital and, to really make it stick, possibly reparations for Palestinians forced out of Israel in 1948 (not left voluntarily, those forced out), even though there is nothing commeasurate on the table for Jews driven out of Arab countries since Israeli independence.

Lea,
Thank you. I should have remembered Bulgaria.

Clay,
See my answer to Chicken Maaan. I have often drawn parallels between Likud and the GOP, neither of whom I support. There are two aspects to this discussion:
1. The moral aspect. Bigotry is bigotry. It is intrinsically a bad thing, no matter in which direction it is pointed.
2. The practical aspect. Defuse or fight.

It may sound like I'm making a moral point in this post but, mainly, I'm not; I'm making a practical point. Likud maintains the status quo by pointing to a continuous threat, which Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran are extremely accommodating about providing. As I've said many times on OS and elsewhere: terrorism and the Jihadist approach to Israel have been critical to Israel's survival; a non-violent resistance strategem would have been twice as successful in a tenth of the time, given both Israel's left and Israel's Jewish-American backing. Pressure holds the hard-liners in place, it doesn't get rid of them. If you want to get rid of them, don't increase the pressure, decrease it. The pressure is their excuse for everything and the way they get moderates and liberals in line.

Israel is a lot like a Chinese handcuff and everyone involved is pulling on their fingers for all they're worth. And, of course, they're still stuck.


Israel is like a
When I read. I learn.
When I read your posts, I learn a lot.
Thank you.
Jack is correct, but the number of Muslims that served in the Waffen SS was historically negligible.

I don't think it helped "shore up a faltering Nazi regime" in any sense.

SS recruits, outside of Germany, were mostly comprised of Dutch, Walloons, Flemish, Danish, French, Norwegians and volunteers from Sweden.
That said he is 100% correct that National Socialist intrigue played a key role in Arab and Middle Eastern ideological warfare against British colonialism.

I think we really need to look at the Arab-Muslim link to Germany and Italy, as well as the pre WW1 Ottoman Turkish and Persian link to Germany from these crucial lines: Germany was seen as the anti-Anglo Saxon great power that would enable the Arabs, Turks and Persians to resist British colonization.

Britain was seen by both the Germans and Middle Easterners as working hand-in-hand with wealthy Jewish financial interests in London, Amsterdam and South Africa, and anti-semitism became intertwined with Anglophobia.

Zionism undoubtedly added to this.

But the links between the Middle East and Germany pre-dated WW2 and Hitler. Germany always had a very "orientalist" tradition, to use a term from Edward Said.

This orientalist tradition, I think, "internationalised" Western European anti-semitism and caused it to diffuse throughout the Middle East. In a sense, it was the conduit through which Russian, French and German anti-semitic canards spread to countries that had, perhaps, never been exposed to it before.

Interesting.
The Baathist movement was also partly inspired by Fascism, a combination of nationalism and state capitalism with socialist aspects.
hich is a two-state solution, settlements either abolished, traded for or paid for, a corner of East Jerusalem to serve as Palestinian capital and, to really make it stick, possibly reparations for Palestinians forced out of Israel in 1948 (not left voluntarily, those forced out), even though there is nothing commeasurate on the table for Jews driven out of Arab countries since Israeli independence.
that's a reasonable deal, and Arabs actually might find it in their interest to pay for that, if there is a de-nuclearized Iran most especially.
You can't make it any clearer than that, Kosh. I am mystified by those who become impatient with Jews' fixation on the Holocaust and African American's fixation on slavery. There is no need to jockey for position in the "Most Persecuted" race. There is plenty of room to fight on all fronts, be it religious, cultural, gender, racial or sexual orientation. In fact, it seems to me that the impatience with these discussions is born out of a kind of collective guilt, based on the failure of so many of our immediate ancestors to intervene on behalf of Jews in WWII. Either that or it is childish one upsmanship; i.e., "okay, so you had it rough, but I had it rougher!"

I will never shut up, I don't care who or how many get tired of listening/reading. There is only one way to shut me up: fix it.

Lezlie
Great post, KS.

The lessons from the last war are frequently the wrong ones for the next one. For example, Chamberlin/Munich was a 'never again' that fed into the Vietnam War.

Israel is now the most powerful country in the Middle East.

Even worse, Israel was extremely successful the last two times they bombed nuclear installations.

This is a crossroads for Israel. If they really want to go it alone -- they will find themselves there. They would have to abandoned a tactic that was previously successful.

In my opinion, other countries have more at stake. This is very destabilizing for the Saudis (Iranian Nukes) and Turkey. This is based on my belief that Iran isn't interested in nuking Israel, but is interested in dominating their neighbors.

This doesn't really address your post. But your post laid out the difficulty of rational action in the context of historical assumptions that are extremely deeply rooted.
Great post, KS.

The lessons from the last war are frequently the wrong ones for the next one. For example, Chamberlin/Munich was a 'never again' that fed into the Vietnam War.

Israel is now the most powerful country in the Middle East.

Even worse, Israel was extremely successful the last two times they bombed nuclear installations.

This is a crossroads for Israel. If they really want to go it alone -- they will find themselves there. They would have to abandoned a tactic that was previously successful.

In my opinion, other countries have more at stake. This is very destabilizing for the Saudis (Iranian Nukes) and Turkey. This is based on my belief that Iran isn't interested in nuking Israel, but is interested in dominating their neighbors.

This doesn't really address your post. But your post laid out the difficulty of rational action in the context of historical assumptions that are extremely deeply rooted.
Ande, thank you.

Rw, glad to learn this stuff. I didn't assume that Muslims were numerically significant to the Nazi effort. In terms of how antisemitism spread to the Middle East prior to Israel's independence, again, it isn't something I know a great deal about. During that time period, Jewish attention on serious antisemitism was obviously elsewhere. Also, thank you for your comment about Baathism. That makes sense.

Don,
It is a reasonable deal from my standpoint and from that of some Arab leaders, at least one of whom (a Saudi prince) suggested something like this internationally several years ago. We don't have the option of straight 1967 borders because of Jerusalem - from 1948 to 1967, Jews weren't allowed to visit the holiest site in Judaism, the Wall, which is in East Jerusalem. Even more inconveniently, the Western Wall is not the wall of the original temple, it's the wall of the original temple mount, a sort of plateau where the original Temple and Second Temple stood. What's there now are a pair of mosques, Al Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock, which are the third holiest site in Islam, though neither mentioned in the Qur'an nor a pilgrimage site. In other words the two sites are physically too close and attached to separate. However, I don't think there's been any point since 1967 that Muslims have not been permitted to worship there, unlike how the Jordanians handled the Wall from 1948 to 1967.

It's probably a reasonable deal to Fatah. I don't know if there is such thing as a reasonable deal to Hamas; that's the $64,000 question if we can get the Israelis to take us that far.

Lezlie,
A little before midnight last night, which wasn't all that late in this discussion, I ended my longest comment by saying:

"As a Jew, both for reasons of personal and ethnic survival and for religiously mandated moral reasons, I worry about bigotry first, before I worry about policy. I want to join in legitimate complaints because I can’t stand some of the conduct I see among my own people but if the complaints are motivated by something other than face value, if the complaints are Selective, aimed at one population but not another, which is a sure indicator that the behavior in question isn’t the real issue because, if it were, the complaints Couldn’t be selective, I’m back to pointing out that we’re looking at bigotry here, and I’m busily fighting a bigger fire rather than the one I wanted to address because the Bigger Fire won’t go out and no one wants to admit that the damned thing is still burning.

"Sorry, Guys, it is. Clean up your acts so I can shut up already."

Today, you say:

"
I will never shut up, I don't care who or how many get tired of listening/reading. There is only one way to shut me up: fix it. "

GMTA.

Nick,
Your assessment about the Last War is a good one.
I really love it when someone clearly gets what I'm saying.
" your post laid out the difficulty of rational action in the context of historical assumptions that are extremely deeply rooted" is Exactly my point. It doesn't matter if those assumptions are accurate; what matters, for effective action, is that they are held.

Jonathan,
Thank you again. I realize there were other sections of that book I wrote last night that passed for a single comment, but this is where I thought I had the most to teach (and, last night, where I felt like I'd figured out the most), so I concentrated here. Maybe one day I'll have reason to trot out various points about defining bigotry but this just looked like a better idea.
If somehow the Muslims of the world picked one Grand Mufti (a Pope of Islam if you will) and that Mufti eradicated--I can't say Antisemitism because the Arabs are Semites--all Muslim ill feelings toward Jews and Israel, that will reignite the worst Christian wave of Antisemitism since Hitler. Therefore, the Holocaust "talk" should be kept alive and well.

That said, the above article should be relied upon as the gold standard at the present time. Excellent piece, KS.
Thanks, Thoth, though neither will happen.
Lezlie's comment was perfect.
Thank you for taking the discussion deeper. I do think that's what needs to happen, just keep whittling down to the bone of it, to help us understand.
r./
Thank you, onislandtime
That's exactly what I try to do
Thanks, Seer.
I try. It's gratifying when people get it. And frustrating when they don't. So far on this post I've been lucky in that regard.
Anytime that six million people are murdered, it's relevant, I don't care if it's been a 1000 years~
Kosher

The Holocaust is as relevant to recent history as is the Communist and Monarchic solutions to "too many people of the wrong kind" The "final solution" is, of course for them to die.

It may surprise you to know that one of the reasons that the "Holocaust" and migration to Israel strikes a chord with "Shitkikers and Rednecks" is that their recent ancestral memory includes being declared "Surplus Vermin" by such as the Pope, the English, Russian, and German Monarchies and various coal mining, manufacturing, and agribusiness combines in the US.

They don't just feel "kin" to the Israelis, and look for them to "Kickoff the Rapture", they admire them. The feeling of "Antisemitism" expressed toward "Jews" in the Banking, Entertainment, and to be frank, Pawn Shop industries is entirely personal and really doesn't have that much to do with disliking "Jews", per se.
Scanner,
Thank you.
The continued presence of the Holocaust in conversations involving Israel has less to do with history than it does with current ramifications, and I think that's what's causing confusion - allegations that it's being used as an excuse when that's really not the main reason it's still in the conversation.

Herr T,
That last line is a beaut. I'm not entirely sure how to take it.
Kosher

True "redneck" hatred doesn't have much to do with anyone's being a particular Race Color or Creed , it has more to do with the personal experience of a particular person's particular brand of "being an Asshole". ( Sometimes it is noted that "his daddy was a asshole before him- and so is most of his kin", but that can be overcome)

This does apply to the particular person of Jewish ancestry by whom a Redneck may feel cheated, or for whom feel a great deal of affection, depending on how he (the person of Jewish ancestry) runs the particular Pawn Shop or Payday Loan with which the Redneck deals-

Not surprisingly, he (The Redneck) feels the same way about the Texans and Italians who also supply the "payday" loan market)
I'm not quite as unfamiliar with rednecks as you think. The ones I know I get along with fine. My Judaism has never remotely been an issue.
I think from a Jewish perspective, it's really hard to draw the line from professional leftists in their steadfast opposition to Israeli government repression and anti-Semitism. I think that often even the professional leftists themselves are subject to confusion on this matter.

I actually think that at this moment in history, it might actually be possible to make progress towards actually implementing a two state solution. It will not happen overnight. It will probably take years before there is fruition. But what is required is realism, flexibility, and a willingness to operate in the loosest possible political coalition to make implementation of this a reality.

As I mentioned on my posting just now, all roads lead to the way Amos Oz has laid out.
So, any plans on accepting a job from J Street anytime soon? ;)

(And I NEVER, EVER do emoticons)
kosher
my point exactly- you being a nice guy, your "Jewishmes"is probably neither here nor there to most "rednecks""
I just had this discussion. I only wish I had been armed with this clear and concise explanation. Thank you.
HRdR, the people I know aren't haters.

Fay,
Thank you and you're welcome.

Frankly, there have been times I wished I'd had it. It came to me in the middle of an argument on another blog, an argument, I might add, which is still in progress, even though the blogger has posted three more times since.
Let me assert that for the majority of the world, your three lessons apply. Let's not allow a minority of anti-Semites, and a hot headed Hamas, which does not possess the economic might or the military potency to seriously threaten the existence of Israel, be used as cover for the Prime Minister of Israel to continue consolidating the colonization of Judea and Samaria. Click the link, read Netanyahu's words, and read the further links to Robert Wright and Andrew Sullivan. I think for Netanyahu to use those terms is pretty antisemitic, where the particular Semites in question are the Palestinian Arabs. It's their fucking land and it's not called Judea and Samaria!!!! It's totally infuriating and it's hard to maintain sympathy for Israel while this continues.

The Israelis have got to get rid of Netanyahu and the right wing if they want to receive the kind of deference you are requesting here. I don't mind hearing about the holocaust and antisemitism; but I am furiously angry at Israel for continuing to pull this kind of crap in the West Bank. It is unacceptable, and should not be tolerated.

Does Israel need to be forcefully expelled from Palestinian land? Is that the only way to stop them? Why do they keep doing this? Why do they think they can get away with stealing that land? What has to be done to make them stop? Why can't they be satisfied and grateful for what the UN and the International community gave them? What will it take?

Israel is tempting fate and inviting hostility. And I feel plenty of it after reading that article I linked to. Why won't American Jews put serious pressure on Israel to stop this? Where's the outrage? The holocaust and antisemitism are not a justification for this. I'm not sick of hearing about the holocaust or antisemitism. I have plenty of compassion about those problems. What I'm really truly fed up with and totally sick of is Israel's continued determined single-minded obsession with total permanent ownership of the West Bank. It stinks.
I can actually support you on that. You can talk about the West Bank as much as you want without any argument from me.
What can be done about it? Why are the loudest groups of American Jews going along with Netanyahu? He doesn't even try to hide it any more; he triumphally proclaims the lands to be Judea and Samaria. That is red meat for the Israeli right that means this land permanently belongs to Israel. He has no shame, no intention of letting go of the land, and nobody is seriously challenging him. I feel so frustrated.
The loudest groups think they're defending Israel's survival. Also, Netanyahu doesn't view himself as dependent on liberal American Jews any more because he's picked up extra support from the Christian Right here, and they're more right-wing than he is.

Overall, good question.
I posted this exact comment below on another thread here:

"These types of discussions all circle around what Israel must do - and never about what others might do.
Whatever positive actions that Israel has taken in the past have always been rewarded negatively by their neighbors.
As long as Hamas and Fatah remain intransigent, the Israeli Left has no lever on the government."

Why is it that influencing the actions of Israel's neighbors is not even considered? Why is it that their actions goes essentially unremarked?
Traveler,
I don't know, but that's a partial answer. Fatah has done better, replacing a focus on Israel with one on economic development. Hamas, no. Personally, I think Israel is right about Gaza but wrong about the West Bank. Some focus attention the other way, which is just wrong.
Hey KS, I'm a pragmatist, like many folks these days. If it pays, I'll be anti-Semitic. If the other side pays I'll be a philo-Semite. I'm flexible. I'm also educated about Jews and Israel. I've read 'O Jerusalem' by Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre. Great fucking book!, really. I'm at your level Kosher. I know about the ambushes of the convoys trying to relieve Jerusalem in 1948, in Bal Al Wad, etc. I can impress old line Jews with my knowledge of Israeli affairs better than your own fucking teenage anti-Zionist sons and daughters, like that punk Breinart, from the New Republic, who wrote that defeatist dreck about how Zionism is losing the young generation of Jews. Alan Dershowitz was lamenting how you Jews are losing your 'oomph' because young male Jews just want to fuck those shiksas and not your JAPs anymore. I know a hell of a lot. I can be bought by right wing Jews for a price...I'm not kidding. That's modern day polutics, er, politikz, (no Zieg Heil here yet, if you pay me....nudge) for you...wink