If you can think of another state law or a court requiring doctors --any professional-- to lie to a patient/client...pls tell me.

Don't know of any. Just another case of Government intruding on the rights of dr. and patient privilege. My womb is my own. It is known that many women do suffer with guilt after planned abortions. And we do know that some women rush to abortion without seeking counsel. However, mandating such is another thing. I don't know about the suicide ideation.

Ande and that a state and a court would say it's required to lie to women patients is a disgrace.

What's going wrong with the U.S.?

And now another tea-party guy to the legislature. A Latino tea-party guy. Even the changing demographics isn't halting this tide of awfulness...

I'm not sure how this could occur?

Myriad not entirely, no.

Myriad not entirely, no.

It occurs when, Bud, courts say that states have the right to pass laws on the basis of very bad non-science.

Totally ridiculous ruling-obviously.

Bud as I say, yes, bizarre.

so the court is telling doctors to act just like the politicians?......thats just great...
R

Steel well-said.

Steel well-said.

Now is the summer of my discontent...It seems all I can do is sigh and shake my head. Say something positive to pull me in off the proverbial ledge, dear Jon. Rated...

South Dakota must already have a difficult time attracting qualified physicians- most people who have worked so hard and acquired so much debt seek the company of others of similar background and opportunities for culture. And now the legislature are dictating what is the best interest of their patients? the Hippocratic oath is seen as a sort of sharia law?

Jonathan, it's just getting more insane by the day. ~r

Muse put sugar in their gas tanks.

Joan in some places.

kenneth apparently

This left me wanting to find out more JW. I suppose that the legislation doesn't actually say "misinform". And I suppose that there's no statistically significant difference in respective suicide rates. I wonder how the case was argued. Nonetheless, here's another example of the "government is the problem" crowd proving their own point.

I had been watching this one. It boggles my mind.

Abra clearly the statute doesn't use "misinform" -- it orders doctors explicitly to assert untruths about abortion and uicide and suicidal ideation.

jls sure does.

I wish I knew what to do about this.

Sheila we need to keep funding Pl.Par. and also hope this gets to the Court and Justice Kennedy sees some light.

When the judicial branch of the government in the United States starts clowning about with the principal of a separation between Church and State what is to become of the Hippocratic Oath?

Here in the bible belt, I've been seeing all kinds of billboards regarding the "sacredness" of life at conception. Imp 2 has become convinced because of this, that abortion is intrinsically wrong, in any and all circumstances. He is 13. I've got a lot of work to do.

Ree-publicans, the party that thinks that ideology is more important than reality. Don't you love the party that wants to take government away from messing with our freedom so they can supervise us in the bedroom?

V. You do!

ONL they're for individual freedom save when it comes to shoving women about.

I'd say it would never stand up in the Supreme court but, that place is already documented as being full of shit.

bob we could win this there.

What an odd law, especially when so many people are already liars. Not being able to trust people was part of what made me suicidal, that's something I know personally. The courts making doctors less trustworthy wouldn't make me suicidal though, I learned not to trust judges or doctors long before this law was passed.

If one of those doctors wound up taking the stand and having to tell the truth about their counseling a patient, would they have to continue the lie under oath or would being on the stand take precedence? What a confusing situation that will be, I hope that's taken that into account.

Sometimes it's hard to figure out if the people making these laws are stupid, crazy or just bad people. I prefer to think they're just stupid or mentally ill or maybe they're all heavy drinkers. There has to be something wrong with them, I hate thinking there are this many bad people around.

Some women do experience suicidal thoughts after having abortions. There's an overload of emotions and hormonal imbalances during a pregnancy and post-partum depression [including suicidal thoughts] occurs more often when there isn't support available to women with mental health issues.

Jon--while I generally concur with your assessment and remain mystified by the rationale of the appeals court I am also a bit disappointed with your post in that it does not come up to your usual standards.
My own personal thoughts are that this is an example of a federal appellate court upholding an effort by a State to prescribe the manner in which a decision/choice is made and prescribe the information which must be provided in a defacto effort to proscribe an alternative.
An alternative (i.e. reproductive choice) is only viable if it is possible to both choose and act. History is rife with limitations being placed on alternatives--hence a "social contract" rather than a "state of nature"--for all legislation is a constraint on behavior.
This particular restraint is an effort to fulfill the original Roe v Wade and Doe v Bolton admonition by the Supreme Court that arguments agains abortion must be presented in a wholly "non-religious" way. By using a logic train which is propped up by arguments that suicide risk is substantiated by "peer reviewed research", the state of South Dakota and the Appeals Court appear to be trying to whittle the square peg to fit the round hole.
I can only hope that the Supreme Court will get hold of this and view it from a perspective of an effort to so constrain the process as to make the "fundamental right" unattainable.

L'H it undermines all that it is to being a physician.

B. yes, tho the preponderance of evidence says clearly that having an abortion does not in any numbers contibute to suicides even tho it has happened.

Any woman considering abortion should be offered counseling and other support, regardless of which procedure and notwithstanding legal rulings, requiring a doctor to tell his patients "they stand a significantly increased risk of suicidal ideation" without scientific proof substantiating such claims sounds like something manipulative hacks do when they're desperately coercing others into believing reproductive rights are subjected to governmental regulations.

Walt I try hard to avoid any standards in my writing.

B. Most doctors who offer abortion amid an array of services do counsel; the issue is whether or not we want states to mandate the specific kinds of counseling and that it nclude misinformation.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something, Jon. I respectfully disagree. Premised upon own experiences with pregnancy and women I've consoled with who've undergone abortions, it's my opinion that an increased likelihood of suicidal thoughts does occur in some cases.

Abortion does alter moods, emotions, etc.; chemical imbalances post-abortion can and does cause many minds into thinking processes which are abnormal, irrational or illogical.

B. No one is suggesting that having an abortion never produces suicidal thoughts. What is clear is that it happens infrequently, that cause--effect, and nowhere enough for a law to undermine what scientific study shows: that it occurs rarely.

If we're gonna mandate counseling, then go all out and pay for top-of-the-line counselors. Just be sure patients have options to decline counseling from self-righteous fundamentalist groups passing themselves off as professional health care caregivers.

Here's a thought. We all know how powerful our pharmaceutical lobbyists are and yet when taking certain synthetic drugs may cause some patients to experience suicidal thoughts, and there are occurrences which "rarely" lead to deaths, we still mandate package inserts to fully disclose this information.

Good topic. Gotta fly...carpe' diem!

B. YES!

Pretty sure we also stand a significantly  increased risk of suicidal ideation and of suicide itself if we give birth.

cred :)

da hell...

Orange uhmhmmm

I am not a lawyer, but I imagine the true "acid test" for this law won't occur until a doctor is prosecuted for not reciting the State Mandated speech.

Stoopid is this.

I'm sure it's on its way to the Supremes. No way something like that can stand.

Matt I dunno... ... ...

Steve that may not be the sole way.

That's the worst lie since "this won't hurt a bit."

Ms V. in a word, uhmhmm.

@Belinda T

If suicidal thoughts are a result of the hormones changes of abortion, you'd expect women who miscarry to have a far greater problem, as they have the same hormone changes plus the grief of losing a baby they wanted, planned, and already loved.

However, suicide is not a medical issue for miscarriages, not even second miscarriages (which significantly decrease the chances of a successful pregnancy in the future). In short, the suicide theory is pure bunk.

The pro-lifers WANT women to feel suicidal after abortions. And no doubt after losing virginity before marriage. But, since 96% of Americans have had pre-marital sex, it's too hard to sell the idea that pre-marital sex leads to suicide.

Mal thanks very much.

Not to become a target here but, I can't believe a species that regrets most every path they take in hindsight would not regret such a major decision to varying degrees.

Found this online


A new study was done in Norway about the consequences of abortion and their impact on women’s mental health. It was found that women could suffer mental distress, anxiety, guilt and shame even five years and perhaps longer after having an abortion.

The study compared a group of 40 women who suffered a miscarriage with 80 women who chose to have an abortion, questioning them 10 days, six months, two years and five years after the event. Women who had spontaneous miscarriages suffered problems up to six months after losing their babies. On the other hand, women who had an abortion experienced more mental distress long afterwards.

The research confirmed that the emotional consequences of having an abortion could be massive and it underlines the importance of counseling to deal with the negative affects of abortion. Women should be given information about the psychological effects of losing a baby - either through miscarriage or abortion

Jay you appear to assume that OBGYNs do not routinely discuss all potential concerns and the fact is that the overwhelming majority do.

The people who most speak abt individual liberty from state control in our nation ditch that ideology when they can use state aparati to shove women around.

Jonathan,

If I told you I had paid for 5 abortions would I be a good responsible man or a bad guy?

If I threatened those women yet, I still came up with the cash am I morally in the clear?

Jay you've lost me.

Sometimes I feel like I'm a character in Alice in Wonderland, the world is upside down, in the rabbit hole, and completely unrecognizable to me.

Amy sometimes, yes.

Women should close up for a week in protest....and tell their man why.

:-)/r

Tor wait...I didn't do this. :(

Jonathan,

Women are coerced into having abortions by their partner on many occasions. Having one for the wrong reasons-trying to keep the guy...will lead to regret later on in life. I do have a friend who paid for multiple abortions in his youth. He is not proud of it and believe that two of the woman wish the worst possible death for him.
An informed decision is not unreasonable in my mind.

Jay informed decisions ARE what private OBGYNs offer routinely. What I do NOT want and what the religious right does want and only when it comes to women's lives, is for gvt to make these choices and now including forcing drs to dissemble.

I'm not a big fan of abortion, but I am troubled when the government seeks to impose itself in the doctor-patient relationship. With any kind of medical procedure or treatment the patient should be given information sufficient to make an informed decision. Without such information the patient cannot truly give "informed consent." But I think it's wrong when the State seeks to dictate the specific content of the conversation between doctor and patient, and very wrong when it is the apparent intention of the State to coerce the patient into making a certain kind of decision.

Mish we agree on this one.

Mish,

I agree as well but, when a group gets paid on a procedure performed only- then, we might want to be concerned about the profit motive.

Jonathan, Your presentation of this ruling -- that the court upheld a requirement that doctors lie to their patients -- seemed so hard to believe that I surfed over to Google.

There I found that the South Dakota law doesn't actually say "lie to women." It says that the doctors must advise them that abortion appears to increase the risk of suicide in the women who elect it. There are experts who believe that this is so, and there are other experts who believe that it is not so. There appear to be no airtight conclusions yet. So the law requires lying only in the minds of those who don't believe there is a correlation between abortion and suicide.

I think you oversold your case.