Greg Correll

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Greg Correll

Greg Correll
Location
New Paltz, New York, US
Birthday
September 21
Title
Founder, Chief of Deselopy (small packages); Editor (doesthismakesense.com)
Company
small packages, inc.
Bio
I write.

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DECEMBER 8, 2011 12:24PM

Last night with Salon

Rate: 23 Flag

It was a great event. So much energy, so many quick wits. I had no alcohol, so I could keep up. Cranky Cuss is right: Emily is sweet, attentive, and has a harried look, like someone who reads way too many OS posts every day. I can't imagine the intellectual challenge, and workload, of it.

Justin Elliot is a sharp and astute guy. He is no grenade thrower; rather, a careful artilleryman. We need more like him. (see his eye-opening post on how six Walton family members are worth as much as 30%(!) of all Americans).

David Talbot is one of the most down-to-earth and accessible fellows. That was a nice surprise.

My only regret of the night was not meeting Joe Conason. Hi Joe!

And I was pretty sure before, but certain of it now: Salon is 110% determined to grow and strengthen Salon and Open Salon. (Yes, OS, it will happen; it's not a snap-your-finger thing; there is inertia built-in to the technology on a site our size, and the "best tech choice" for the new OS is not just a moving target, it can be a blur on the far horizon).

Salon is the only real alternative to the woo-woo gullibility and ungahpatchka mess of HuffPo, the self-satisfied talking heads of the nightly news, the oddity of Politico, the austerity of The New Republic, the blindered insiders at the well-meaning Washington Post.

They have everything in place to leverage progressive energies – and an examine-everything philosophy that contrasts sharply with the hothouse circularity of the online right-wing communities. Salon looks at all of us, right and left, with focus and fearlessness.

They face daunting challenges. 

They need Core Members. This is not some simple money thing. They want  people to get involved. Salon is unique. It's professional investigative journalism, and it's critical thinking, with progressive values and smart, funny minds. But there is this new opportunity Salon has started to test: to grow and strengthen a sensible, pragmatic, and highly effective progressive movement by networking through writers and thinkers. Leveraging the many different kinds of professionals who read and write in the Salon sites. 

The benefits of being a Core Member, in sheer $ value, far outstrip the annual cost. You get free subs to Rolling Stone, Food & Wine, and Mad Magazine, among other things! Look at those added benefits, add it up –and more is on the way. But the real opportunity, to get close to Salon, to roll up our sleeves and do things together, will grow. Salon is listening, and will make this happen. And yet only if we step up.

Petitions are fine. But if you are a level-headed progressive, who sees the need for both dramatic push-back against the lawyered-up bankers, AND for careful, incremental, long-lasting change, Salon is looking for you.

Here's an example: Last night I met Core Member John Long. A young neuroscientist, he has 10 hours a week, give or take, to offer to Salon. He was an organizer for Obama in Nevada. Brave fellow. Articulate and passionate, he is one of many. On Open Salon I know of dozens who, though they might choose to simply blog, like a blogger does, are in fact accomplished professionals, experienced organizers and managers, in many fields. Task-oriented, who have skills that can be combined and channeled with effect, on short term projects, through a media brand like Salon. If that's you, become a Core Member, please.

In designanators post, I have to say: in the Cranky, Emily, and Greg photo, the lovely young FIT sophomore on the right is my daughter Rocky (Roxanne).

 

_______

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I'm tempted to say they must have been serving kool-aid last night - but that would be snarky and no doubt ignorant & unfair.

I do wish Salon all the best and, once a premium, might become a core.
Hopefully, you were explaining to Kerry everything that needs to be done technically. Because I didn't understand a word.

I had a great time. Anytime you, Nikki and Jeremiah show up, intelligent conversation ensues. And I am pleased that all of the Salon people I met were friendly and down-to-earth.
Myriad: i admit it freely: I include here a testimonial and call for Salon. I hope I make the case well, with compelling details. The things is, Salon is arguably, demonstrably, unique. On no other site has the "open" part been so open, given such freedom to writers, such confident brand association to unknowns like us, or attracted so many passionate, thinking people. Salon itself is effective and vibrant, and veers off from the doctrinaire left repetition that is so dispiriting about some progressive sites. Salons willingness to call foul to the dangerous and pseudo-scientific anti-vaccination movement? TRULY unique among progressive "institution" sites.

If one wants to see if Salon will live up to a strict, alcove idea of what being Left means, they will disappoint. If one wants to associate with and contribute to a genuinely progressive, thinking enterprise, become a Core Member.
Myriad again: I know your posts and the incredible passion you have. I thus try in my first comment to balance the message: Salon is idiosyncratic, in what i think is a positive way, but it makes some Lleftists scratch their heads. I personally feel a proven success, an established brand for progressivism, like Salon, must be nurtured and reinvigorated often. This means we set aside some litmus tests, perhaps, and forbear differences, in order to unite our voices and talents for maximum effect.

Cranky: it was so cool standing with you, Jeremiah, and the DC political Editor for Salon, like just plain folks at the bar, talking stuff n politics.
I wondered who that pretty lady was in that photo. You give me hope for the future and a desire to help even if it is only to write the best blog I can. Thanks.
It's not just me? I can't stand HuffPo, like I've stumbled into the Enquirer or something...
Glad you had a good time last night, so appreciate hearing your thoughts on Salon and folks.
I appreciate what you are saying, but given what I have experienced the last two years, I don't think I would be inclined to be part of their paying membership to Salon. Then I would not only be pissed off that the system is down and I can't post or comment but that I paid them money too. I would also be inclined to change that if they clued us in on how things were changing and when
Nice pitch, Greg, and I believe you believe. You're about as sincere a guy as I have ever come across...which is a rather sad thing to say, I know, about the kind of people I come across. But...I'll be a believer, too - I'm fully capable of it - when I see more positives on our end of the venture. When it appears there's a tad more respect shown for OS, my faith, which is idling now, but steady, may rev up to full-fledged belief, just like, if not as technically savvy, yours.
Rita and Matt: fair enough, and I can't argue with it. From what I learned last night, those changes will come in 2012. So keep Core membership pencilled in for after the new OS launch plus 30 days (just to make sure they get rid of the bugs in the initial shakeout period). Good?
Oy Weh. I was about to try to write a blog o' me own (NOT on this topic) but hey, you got the attention of the activity feed so here I am commenting to you first. I (feel I) "know" all of you a lot better than most (if any) of you would have much reason to believe you ?"know"? me but for that I must defer to the blog I may or may not yet write.

Meanwhile, about the tech problems of OS: I was interested in the ?synchronicity? that the first thing I read with my latest meal (I still subscribe to some dead tree stuff for my mealtime companions) was a long article by James Fallowes [sp?!] in the latest (dead tree version) Atlantic on the experiences he and his wife had with spammers. To anyone annoyed with OS right now, I heartily recommend you look this article up. [I don't have an online link at hand but you guys all know how to do that sort of thing, o.k.?] Please, READ IT.

Meanwhile, all, let's ?"keep on truckin'"?, o.k.?! Thanks all of you for "being there" and challenging me daily as to who[m] to love, hate, agree with, disagree with or just sigh and ignore.

R
I am delighted to see this Greg r.
Sorry I did not get a chance to meet ya, Greg...but maybe next time.

f.
I'll think about Core Membership. Ms. Stim & I are buying a condo next week. Maybe I can ask the lender to toss in an extra $45. If they offer a Sporting News Fantasy Source for baseball, I'll be all over this.

Glad everyone had a fine time.
They have everything in place to leverage progressive energies... Salon looks at all of us, right and left, with focus and fearlessness.

I don't know. It seems that the above statements are at cross purposes. Salon and OS consistently view the right and the middle in terms of how much snark and ridicule they can pile onto the heap.

...there is inertia built-in to the technology on a site our size, and the "best tech choice" for the new OS is not just a moving target, it can be a blur on the far horizon.

Bullshit. It is a simple matter for a programmer to isolate the function that commits a post to the database and modify it so that it filters out the spam flooding the site. Not only filter it, but ban the IP that sent it and delete the user account. It was when I read that the editor and other users were visually monitoring the output and manually deleting the spam that I knew one of two conditions exist at Salon: either their programmers are clueless or there are insufficient funds available for a capable IT department. Both scenarios are unsatisfactory and one is left to wonder how they came to be in the first place.

I suppose I could donate free of charge my programming expertise. Just like the writers who generate free content on OS hoping it migrates to the 'big' Salon page. And now you say if I pay a fee to become a core member I get the chance to roll up my sleeves and help Salon further leverage their progressive agenda. I dunno, Greg. There's something fishy about that business model.
I'll sign up to be a core member, Greg, since you say it will help. Thanks for attending last night and seeking to help solve the problems at OS. It looks like it was a swell time, too.
Thank you, Greg, for this post. I've bookmarked it for "core membership" about which I'll think and wait for a while before committing. It sounds like an idea Sagemerlin/Alan Millner had proposed a while ago about "paid membership" to keep Open Salon running better.
Glad you all had a nice time.
R♥
Now, Mad Magazine is actually worth it!
Glad you can chronicle these events.
Greg,

Thanks for posting the membership information. I'm going to read it right now.
podunkmarte: thanks. I'm interested in articles about spammers, and I like The Atlantic.

Jon! yeah you would have loved it.

Frank: They will be holding other Core events and we were suggesting last night some theme events etc, so perhaps at one of those...?

Stim: Hey, if any such-like benefit exists, email the core and suggest it to Priscilla. She not only would be interested, she positively wants to get such suggestions. All she wants is to have benefits that are meaningful.

Whirlwind: Some Salon writers do. I think Alex Pareene certainly lobs grenades. But an objective comparison with, say, HuffPo, would show Salon to be far more willing to go after sacred cows of the Left. I cite one example above, the anti-vaccination hooey. And it's not hard to find articles, pretty much every week, in which they take Obama and the Dems to task on something. Compared to the sites on the right, this is startlingly even-handed. Malkin's site will print any rumor, exaggeration, bald lie or crackpot theory, so long as it promotes the right and demonizes the left –– and she never, ever retracts. I would be interested in any example of a rightwing site that routinely critiques the TeaPartican leadership and sainted spokesperson. You'll allow the use of the seeming snark on TeaPartican, since it is simply the folks in charge of the Republican Party now.

Reason Magazine might be cited as even more "balanced" in criticizing both wings, but they are not Progressives, and that was my point: progressives have to move in the direction of critical thinking and constructive self-criticism –– no sacred cows. BTW, look into 'Salon and Lewinsky'.

As to your 2nd part I stand firmly by my statement. I was project manager and chief architect for Yale University's Climate Institute site, and my company recently fixed Verizon's failing F1OS Drupal portal serving over 100,000 customers. We've designed and maintain a half-dozen large member-driven sites using customized CMS mashups, and I ran IBM's Credit Union site for 12 years, using a custom Cold Fusion CMS I designed.

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement. If you re-read closely, I say nothing about spam per se, which is not the chief complaint from users at any rate. I refer in the larger sense to what kind of system Open Salon should switch to. Joomla's emergence from 1.5, with modern ACL, and the forthcoming separation of the objective later in the 2.0 next year, opens a whole possible world to OS -- and Joomla has JomSocial and EasyBlog, which utterly transform OS. Drupal has mastered the API approach and is once again snapping at Joomla's heels; their multi-site capabilities offer some interesting pluses for OS. Wordpress, weirdly, has evolved from small-scale single user vanitypress-dom to permit mutiple-blogging and is now and impressively scalable CMS, despite its vulnerabilities. NONE of these were around when OS launched with its proprietary CMS, that is now defunct as a product.

So which should they use? The commitment is total. They will lose everyone if they choose wrong, or if they implement too much or too little of the vastly richer feature sets they offer. Hence I say: it's a moving target.

Consider just the issue of commenting systems. We have seen 3 major sea-chaanges in commenting systems in the last 9 months alone. Consider the implications of the rapidly emerging convergence functions of disqus and facebook cross-commenting. Had they chosen a system 4 months ago it would lack these crucial, must-have features. And converting your commenting system and internal ID links is a nightmare of timing and migration. On a busy site especially. You have to do it at least twice, which is expensive: once on a dev site to see if your protocol catches everything, then again for real at 3 am, with rollbacks in case any small thing goes wrong.

If you pre-publish your intent you get creamed for it failing, even tho such failures are hard to avoid and simply mean you'll try again in three days with an improved method. If you don't publicize it you get creamed for suddenly changing the system without notice.

Do you own your comments? Then you have the benefit of storing your de facto shared intellectual property in-house. But then you lose the massive benefit of cloud sharing (FB and disqus), with external providers who suffer the burden and cost of keeping it alive and making it interoperable with all the social walls and systems out there, systems that make or break you, that serve as extended reach and marketing adjuncts. Think viral.

And whatever commenting system you choose is the one you are stuck with for the next three years, or else you have to go through all this migration again.

And that's just commenting.

Yours is apparently the perspective of a task-doer programmer, and i respect that. In that isolated perspective you are not exactly wrong about this being: a task, for a spam problem. But in your conclusion you seem to tie this to their business model? and not wanting to support them? because it's fishy? I don't quite follow how this stops you from donating fine-grained programming tasking, the kind of work they couldn't accept anyway, which must remain, from Salon's perspective, just the follow-thru fulfillment on the larger plan they are struggling to finalize, work that can only be provide in the context of a tested team, vetted by the site architect. There's no value in an isolated deliverable, from someone they don't know and who has no formal responsibility for the outcome, who comes in to do a one-off, "throwing something at a server" thing.

All that said? your general anger at OS for the lack of communications, and the slow schedule at fixing the problems, is understandable. Hold off, then. But if you have other skills, skills for thinking through issues, for organizing or joining industry- or issue-based theme teams who will do research on a short-term basis, then join Core. if you're willing to take a flexible approach and reality-based talking points into other forums and mention being a Salon Core Member, to talk about healthcare or revitalizing manufacturing or getting subpeona power over banks or just generally popularizing critical thinking and science, in contrast to the Republican creationist-oriented anti-science, then join Core. Because there is plenty to do. And Salon is already a viable brand.

Here's something we need: Dedicated Core members willing to go into the letters/comments areas of Salon and Open Salon and make determined efforts to set a different tone. To counter the pot-shot, thin-skinned dismissals that are so easy to do. Instead, bother to counter arguments with well-framed cases, and be willing to admit to lack of knowledge on specific points. Don't rise to crude bait with your own crude insults and vulgarity, thinking that the temporary thrill of power, of transgression, and a phrase made of swagger, represents actual deep thought. Bother to do research on one, just one area, like credit default swaps or why copper mining moved to South America or if reality TV can be show to diminish or improve discourse or if vaccines cause genetic conditions –– then stay alert for Salon articles or any other's articles on that topic and chime in with reason, and civil and complete responses. Heck, you don't have to be Core to do that, but it would be cool if Salon Core members got a reputation for being fierce with their ideas, not with other sentient beings.

Miguela! coolio! and it was.

FusunA: hey, that's right, i remember that. Due props to them.

Vanessa: Viva Mad!!!! ABSOLUTELY. As one Salon staff person said last night about Mad: get em while they're young.

Diary: it could be cool, to help evolve S and OS both form the grassroots. thanks.
Greg,

I plan to join. It will be my Christmas gift to myself.

Thanks again for posting this.

V

XOXOXO
Sounds like it was a great party, and Greg, you sound like you're on Board, which is awesome. I'm still kind of broke to become a Core member, but maybe if I win a few more photo challenges and I can find my Tink for Warlord t-shirt design, I can make enough to buy Kerry and such a cup of tea!!

God, it sucks to be poor!!!

:D

Anyways, I stated earlier, I'll state it again, Open is unique in its way, I've meet some awesome friends on here, gotten more exposure. I'm not sure about Salon General, I very rarely go over there, Open is my home away from the Home....

Rated.
Think I'll watch and wait a little. But thanks for the great update, Greg.
Greg, thanks very much for the link to my post and I look forward to meeting you in the future at another meet-up! I certainly agree with you about the Core membership and I've been a Salon Premium member since the program was started about a decade ago to help keep Salon afloat. I see that your daughter, Rocky, goes to FIT and that's a great school! I have two friends, and also a third cousin who all graduated from there.
Careful Greg, with all that huffing and puffing you're beginning to sound a lot like Frank Morgan before Terry pulled back the curtain.
Tink: yes it does suck. I wish, for you and me both...well.
But you are well-loved.

Designanator: to me it's simple: who out there is doing it pretty well? If we wait for perfecta and just grouse in the wings we aren't being useful. Go FIT!!!

Twister: Toto, I think you mean. And yeah, I know, I tend to be fulsome in my responses sometimes.
I trust you as a cofounder and participant in what might be seen as a rival site - DTMS. Also because i had no idea what you were talking about in terms of your experience and credentials in response to a comment, which , like cars and computers, makes me think you are **MAGIC**. I loved my premium memberships...someone pointed out to me that you could accept the subscriptions and then decline them and get your money back, which more than paid for your initial premium investment. I never did that, but thought the premise was funny. I think I got The Reason one year...
I wish I lived in New York it would be so cool to go to these parties.
I will consider the core membership, it sounds like a good thing to do.
I just wish they would pay a teeeny tiny bit of attention to those who write poetry here. A society without poetry cannot reflect on itself.
rated with love
jeez I do hate to rain on any parade but whenever I see your your avatar I think of zaj, & how quickly you managed to get rid of him.
you have the ear of os editors, & good luck to you ~ good luck also in your endeavour to have us pay to work here too.
it was enough to lose one of our finest poets, now I feel like I'm being asked to lose my principles & my mind as well.
Toto, I think you mean.

No, I meant Terry.
aim: dtms has a central theme -- critical thinking -- which makes it different from Open Salon. Plus we are miniscule compared to OS. I know what you mean about magic –– my lead developer's abilities feel like magic to me.

RomanticPoetess: I agree about the poetry. I think Core might be one way to have an impact on increaasinv poetry in Salon and Open Salon, but even without become a Core member OS is interested in affinity groups like we have on dtms (join? http://www.doesthismakesense.com, and help me run the lyrical rationalism Group there!). Once OS expands to allow self-defined affinity groups it will be a better place for poetry.

Kim: 1. I did not have zaj removed. You are the second person to accuse me of that. 2. zaj was a by all accounts fine poet but a vicious person at times, whether it was drink or whatever, and he called someone on OS a "nigger bitch" among many other things. 3. By the time I complained about it -- and I was one of many -- he was already removed.. 4. repeat: HE WAS ALREADY GONE. 5. So I did not have zaj removed. 6. For some reason though I was one of many who complained because he clearly violated OS rules, a few people think I alone am responsible. It defies all logic and fair play to simply make up a story and pin it on me. 7. Write to Emily. Do some research. It's ridiculously easy, if you are sincere. Get your facts right before you accuse someone. Though at least you come out and say it here, giving me the opportunity to refute it for the third time. 8. BTW, after confronting him on that thread for saying what he said to this other writer, zaj went on in several other comments to tell me he was going to kill me, that he knew where New Paltz was, that I should look over my shoulder, that he had big friends to help him, etc, etc. What would YOU do? 9. I saved all of that. I am sure OS has a copy. 10. I reached out to Stellaa a few days later, after learning he was a good poet and she was his friend, to try to encourage his return, offering that I would not stand in the way of his return and would speak on his behalf to OS -- IF he said something on OS that showed remorse or something. She got back to me that he would "probably not". 11 . My stepfather drank himself to death. He was a full professor of psychology and a medic under Patton and I loved him dearly but he was a mean drunk. I feel compassion for zaj, and I didn't even know the guy. 12. OS has good rules for good reasons and if I saw someone doing what zaj did again I would complain again. 13. The idea that I have Emily's ear is ludicrous. I exchanged 30 words with her at a public event.
Tornado: then the reference is too obscure for me. BTW, it occurs to me: your first comment complains with specificity about how easy some very exact thing is. I liked that. I like specificity, making cases. I reply with specificity -- ok, perhaps a LOT of specificity -- and you change levels, reverting to, well, a little snark, (snark, hmm, which was part of your original complaint about Salon? hmm), about how over-specific I was. My apologies. I took you at face value. I thought you wanted to get down to cases. You would seem more credible to me as a fair broker if you engaged with me on the issues I raises, in the post, and in my, ok, overwritten response to you, about the exact issues and technical challenges facing OS. I suspect your whole point was to just feel superior to Salon with a general and surly drive-by. Fair enough, That's what peoples on the internets do. I had hopes to draw you out, though, and hep you get to the point, with your 'expertise' or something. Learn something from you. Oh well.
Greg, Terry is to Toto as Frank Morgan is to Oz, that is to say Terry is the dog actor's 'real' name.

I'd rather not get in a pissing contest over the technical aspects of OS' future in regards to Joomla vs Drupal vs Wordpress and which CMS is best for them, Facebook or Twitter, which is what you threw in my face in regards to my suggestion as to how easy it would be for a competent programmer to get rid of a significant amount of the spam by modifying the blog post function to filter suspicious posts.

My bad if spam is not the chief dislike of most OS users, which you never did state what their chief issue was, by the way. In contrast to your view, it is my primary gripe with the site, and it is not just a weekend thing and it has persisted for over a year now, which I must admit amazes me.

Sorry that my comments offended you, but I stand by them, kind of.
Whirlwind: Aha! "Terry" I guess I should know that, since my mutt is half-Cairne Terrier, like, Toto.

I don't think I threw it in your face. I did place it before you, with care and in detail. We can disagree whether my point -- that doing isolated tasks are easy, or are no-brainers for the strategic decision-makers, when much larger issues loom and budgets are tight. You might be right, that they should risk a domino effect and apply a patch. I take your point. I was looking at the bigger picture. Your "bullshit" and simplistic description irked me, I admit it.

As to spam vs the other bigger problem -- OS simply fails to function at all, and fairly frequently (slow, or error screens), I just assumed you knew that. So fair enough, it sounded like I was being opaque. OS's primary access malfunctions are in fact the subject of LOTS of OS posts and comments, including some in the last week.

Irked, but not offended. What matters on OS and the internet is not the rough bumps, it's whether dialogue is achieved, however imperfectly. All the best to you.
Thanks for this . . . helping to understand Salon & Open Salon a wee bit better.
I confess:
`
I struggle:
`
I'm bitter?
I believe in making things, and individuals, communities, Salon/Open?
To be better.
Let 'our' best be better.
Never let our self be bitter.
struggle to have 'our' best?
Work to allow it be better.
`
Bitter? Bitter can change?
Transform? Best be better.
Respect. I am just bantering.
`
I came to Open Salon by accident.
I was banned from Salon. Kerry?
`
I had two Gold Star memberships.
Adds always annoyed me. Coke?
I don't need a fancy car or junk.
I realize Salon aims for profits.
`
The Farm name @ Salon was:
GoodCelery! Home - bebop-o.
Those fees were`2 X's $45.00.
`
I did enjoy the book from a Salon staff about magic and C.S. Lewis etc., I got a book ref: pregnancy.
A daughter-in-law was`with child.
I mentioned @ Salon the `gifts, ay.
`
There are no refunds? Pay`Core fees?
I must agree with Rita? Who deletes me?
To express 'our' grievances mean`griefs.
Salon's staff are unresponsive. Why so?
`
I have had non-Gold-memberships too.
`
goat gouda blueberry and clownsense.
One commenter who challenged me?
He called his avatar`Clowns Scare me.

There was a quick witted person named:
`
Klytus. There was no animosity toward anyone.
I never wrote with a vulgar 'tongue' so-to speak.
I actually appreciated diverse thought and ideas.
How else can a human being grow. Adversity, ay.
`
Believe it or not? I'm trying to write a brief comment.
Yesterday I woke rested. The Moon was bright. Clear.
This morn I woke groggy. I babysat. What great` Joy.
Lewis is three. I ask? You a good boy or a bad 'lil boy?

He responded:
`
I am a happy boy.
WE ate some candy.
It was leftover candy.
Trick or Treat candy.
`
Lewis was only supposed to eat two pieces of candy. We keep secrets. We agreed?
Let's not tell Mom.
He gestured` hush.
`
Morals? No lie or?
Eat leftover candy?

I was even deleted @ Garrison Keillor.
I doubt Mr. Keillor deletes comments.
I'm doubtful I can respect thee editor.
`
Where are the many letter/comments?
bebop-o - Paid $45.00. Then banned?
GoodCelery! was denied Salon 'right'.
`
goat gouda blueberry was banned.
clownsense was refused privileges.
`
I first comment @ Open Salon post:
Being "chased-off" @ Salon's site.
`
The old Arthur James blog broke.
I can't get into the "private" PM's.
I never receive notice now ref:`if?
If I'm "befriended" or a comment.
My Art James blog acts so odd too.
Many comments go nowhere. Why?
I'll notice on the Open Salon's Feed.
The active 'Feed' sites I commented.
But, where did the comment go to?
`
Where are the Salon old contributions.
If I Google all the past avatars? Missing.
`
arguably - I don't understand? I wacky?
I may become inaudible. I will not share
I'll ad-lib, and think outrageously? Yes?
Maybe less griefs better. Whisper. No?
I can enjoy private soliloquies. O, muse.
To be grieved is continue ridiculousness.
I never feel happy if I says gads or huffs.
In the theatre they say`

"While I live I'll crow."

I may not be clear.
I have learned here.
I am asked to hush.
`
A respected woman said:
Blogs can be so ethereal.
I ponder what She said.
She always smiled too.
She'd say`Whatever.
P.S.
I think her house never did?
O, smelled like Canadian fish.
She was a Elder retired Star.
She read Margaret Atwood,
Yeats, Blake, Wordsworth,
Susuki, and organized:
home book club reads.
etc., My respect. Heart.
Art:

It's simple, in a way:
if you call someone ofay
or nigger bitch
or either which

you teeter like old wood
as well you should
but if you threaten murder
mayhem, disorder
and make threats personal
knives, guns, curse, 'n all

then off you go.

You have no one to blame but yourself
if you make someone fear for their life.
because we all want to protect our health
and to share words without danger and strife.

None of us have the "right" to be here
but we have the right to feel safe.
And it's right of Salon to remove anyone who
says they will come to your town with a wrecking crew.

No talent or wit
justifies this shit

ca va?

heart to you/
huh?
Where did I ever do anything like that?
Project.
I remember a blogger you took on nasty.
She wrote me a PM. She was dieting too.

You write ... "I have no one to blame ..."
There is a 'bunch' of classic writ ref:,
`
Character Assassination. It's killing.
from 'asssinus' and worst than that.
It's a form of murder. The severity.

Oh. On Salon's Office Door - Sign?
On cloud nine. Seek Dirty Words.
A Stoney Silence Broke by Burps.
Salon's editor Says`Cookie Time.
Milk & Kooky. Hang Deodorizer.
Mammoth Dictionary. Seeker of:`
dirty words, bile projection, Oy!
P.S.
I am not defending other blogs.
If some did that? I don't know.
I know that I never. I know that.
Hi Art

My doggerel is not aimed at you. It's general. It's about the inane accusations that flew my way, that I have superpower or Special Influence, and that Zaj was a "victim" of anyone but his own violent threats and bad judgement. I notice you commented in Kim's post, a post that rabidly accuses me of, well, I cant quite tell what. What everyone who targets me wants to sidestep is exactly what really actually happened, and whether anyone should be kicked off for violent, detailed personal threats. I say here: you cross that line, off you go.

Here's what I sent as "complaint" to then editor Judy Berman:

"http://open.salon.com/blog/zyskandar/2010/02/18/for_black_history_month_-_the_duke_rape_accuser_yet_again

OK, I obviously pushed his buttons here. Not sure if that makes my concern moot or what.

But this response:

-- makes me certain I will never add a comment on his posts again

-- makes me worry

Please advise.

Sorry for the trouble.

Greg"

______

There it is. Big bad Greg send a mild complaint. Judy kicked him off because -- and I want to be very careful not to pile crap on a deceased artists name -- this is just small taste of zaj's own words, the words that led to my simple complaint up there:

"wenn i puymmel yes pummel you into the ground and you scream like the little-bytch girl yu assuredly are you can getz your fellows"

"for you GREGGY wenn i appears at your house i will break my promise to her not to physically abuse the likes of your ilk"

"after i show up in person please please please call the police or anybody you think can proteckt you!!! you are a caucasian guy if that is your picture"

"looking forward to seeing you in person GREGGY"

" i break my promise to my present wife not NOT to beat the SHIT out of anyone else in my lifetime - GREGGY have some buddies with you maybeeze that will make it fair not only physically but mentally! looking forward to our what will be your very brief encounter will see if you and your fellow OSSALOONers are laffing then GREGGY?! Mr. Walsh thanks for the read/commenTs on this BLACK BYTCH who has learned to play the game"

If anyone defends these kind of violent threats they are not thinking straight about the minimum security we all require online. When I complained to the editor i had no way of knowing that he was aged and infirm and incapable of following through. He adopted a street gangsta persona and it got away from him? I don't know. But we can't say these kinds of things on Open Salon, period, full stop. That's my opinion.

I hope this clears it up for rational and compassionate people.
________________
All the best to you, Art. I respect and admire you.
Greg,
I saw your words here last night and have been thinking of them since.
You have made your case ... as you see it. Fair enough.

You’ve made mention of Kim’s post here where now I can see that you copied what you’d written here as explanation of what happened ... as far as you can see. Fair enough. But also you speak here of his accusations of you which from the first he admitted there were perhaps a momentary angry rant ... did you see his words ...

What you completely omit here as you respond to Art ... is that on Kim’s post once daylight hours caught up for him and he had seen your words to him there ... he answered you. He wrote his thoughts as you had written yours ... and then ... said that had he been wrong about your role, then he apologised ... to you ... by name ... there.

I respect someone who reaches out a hand ... but he can only offer his apology ... he can not force your hand to accept.

It just seems that there is a missing piece here ... at least this one ... and somehow it belongs here.

zaj seems to have been a complex man ... but who of us is not ... complex.

Some saw only one side of him ... some saw ... far more ...
Was he right to say such things ... I’m not honestly sure I know. Was he well or was he ill when he wrote them and can anyone who didn’t wonder then and ask someone who might have known ... know now. Certainly the things written should have been checked ... as much for him as for you. If we sense another here in trouble, don’t we try to reach out in some way. Did any of that happen then. I wish it had. A quieting, a reasoning might have helped ... everyone. Then.

Had that happened, his other words might still be here now. His poetry, which as I read, as friends recall, so speaks to me.

From my experience with your words, I can’t imagine you antagonised him and yet ... even you ... in your note to Judy Berman sensed that you had pushed his buttons ...

You sensed that but here ... as you offer what you saved ... the link to zaj’s piece leads to something no longer there. No one now can see what was said ... there by him or by you. If that exchange began what followed ... then what you offer seems incomplete ... for the reasons you seem to offer what was said to you. Pieces of a whole ... are ... pieces ... not the whole - especially after so much time.

I’ve read a fair few of your pieces here and often they have moved me. Yet I don’t know what it is you mean someone to see from this. Something worried you. You spoke to it. Fair enough. I realize the moment itself has passed and that words may be read differently from the way they first appeared to you. He was a man in pain. We know that now.

I didn’t know him then. I wish I had. What I come to know now is that this man was a stunning poet who, while writing/posting here with help and on his own, was a man trying to face and deal with his own mortality. Perhaps only one or two people actually knew that then ... but so many voices from one man ... surely someone sensed something. Did no one reach out to him to learn what so angered him. One can only wonder now.

Greg, whatever happened on the day, in hindsight, with knowledge now shared, can there be no grace? If not, then you and I must agree to disagree for from what I see, there must be grace. Sometimes such an artistic gift ... when faced with limitations beyond one’s control ... is not easy to bear ... especially in times of pain ... does that not matter at all. In my world it matters a fair bit. If it were me, I hope someone would look beyond the words to see who I am besides ... and so perhaps allow for grace.

Finally, had you gone back and seen Kim’s words to you, perhaps your words here would acknowledge his apology if he has been unjust to you. His words are there and offered honestly. In all the rest Kim speaks so clearly as someone remembering the loss ... double loss ... of a friend. I hope someone would remember me ... with grace ... whatever it was I’d done.

One voice here, Kim's, has apologised, has reached out a hand in order only to celebrate a friend, a poet whose work even you acknowledge to be glad to see re-printed here. Can your voice, Greg, not reach back ...
Anna: I did not see kim's, going there now
anna, I don't see what you are referring to, perhaps Kim took it down. I will send you a PM.

I appreciate the compassion and earnestness of what you write here. I no longer make the mistake of online fights, the return again and again. It's pointless. All we can do is say a thing, exchange once or twice, send a private PM. I did all of that on this issue, this time and many previous times, to those who make this ridiculous accusation. If what I post here is not sufficient for others to see the level of threat that was used, and others don't agree that this just can't be allowed, then no other words will persuade.

Please: if you like we can PM about this, but I really, really don't like these drawn out public back and forths. I recognize and respect what motivates you. It is in all you say. But for me this is simple: people who don't know me, who listen to third-hand online gossip, have slandered me with vile nonsense. i show here what really happened, yet again. This just goes on and on.

I welcome ANY PM communication from ANYONE who will be respectful and reasonable. Anyone who leaves slander up on a post? I don't see the point of thrashing things with them.
Greg:

I am very interested in what you said and this part really struck home to me:
"Dedicated Core members willing to go into the letters/comments areas of Salon and Open Salon and make determined efforts to set a different tone. To counter the pot-shot, thin-skinned dismissals that are so easy to do. Instead, bother to counter arguments with well-framed cases, and be willing to admit to lack of knowledge on specific points. Don't rise to crude bait with your own crude insults and vulgarity, thinking that the temporary thrill of power, of transgression, and a phrase made of swagger, represents actual deep thought. "

I have a very specific point of view and have been attacked in the crudest ways multiple times because the POV is counter to the received wisdom of many people here.

With rare exceptions, no one has ever defended me or tried to bring the discussion back to an even exchange of ideas.
I, and others for different reasons, have been the target of posts specifically to defame us - and even though I've complained to the Editors about this, this practice continues.

I understand the issues of resources and business priorities but it is no use having the OS as a subsidiary if it is going to be a place where ideas are not discussed but persons can be verbally attacked.

Why would I, as a target of these attacks, commit to Salon for any amount of money for any reason?

Lew
Greg, I take your point about a PM and I won’t belabour this point here, but I think what is left now by Kim in the thread allows someone to follow what is still there - all of what is there. It helps me to see ... and I have told you what I see ... in words still there. It helps some to reflect and think. Kim’s apology - made directly there to you - seems to me ... his hand extended to you ... to close this ... to let it go ...

That ... is what I see. I wish I could help you see it too.

I’ve read every word Kim has posted here ... every word ... all of them - even the words that disappeared. He has become my friend.
More than anything else this moment ... I wish I could help you know the Kim I have come to know. Let this wish be my gift to you. I hear your please and with this said, I will honour it.
Lew:

Well, those are good questions. I went and looked at your blog and read the Slate and "The Man from Nowhere" posts. I wish Open Salon had better terms and methods, like Slate's.

We would welcome you on dtms (http://www.doesthismakesense.com), a site for critical thinking. We have even tougher policies there. They amount to: engage a bit, be fierce with your ideas but not with each other, then let it go; if you persist in acting like a jerk, out you go.

But here's the funny thing: out of 300+ Registered Members there, no one, not once, has even made us have to THINK about warning them, much less removing them. So what I think is this: declaring tough rules of engagement is half the battle. I recognize that some sites want to remain the wild frontier, and I even think such places have a purpose, if only to remind us what we might become without rules.

But Open Salon is not be definition or by habit such a place. We OSers deserve better rules, and tougher enforcement, I agree. This execrable nonsense that a few have brought up here, about me having a non-existent "power" to remove someone? is based on an issue that's far more serious: a person on OS was horribly abusive, and when called on it he instantly vented lots of violent, detailed threats. And look what happens if we report someone – note that I did not call for his removal! – to the Editors here: other OS Members carry on slanderous attacks against those who report, and ignore the violent threats that are the actual problem.

This is not a fault of the Editors, per se. This is a small gang of posters here on OS who feed on each other's hated and bile and are addicted to the fleshpot of flamewars. They are everywhere on the internet. A fault exists in OS rules and imperfect enforcement, I agree, but the far greater fault lies in those who make such rules necessary. Who excuse threats of violence.

I used to be one of those flamers. I have no sense of moral superiority. I struggle against the impulse, even now. But I invest myself in that struggle, and succeed. And I never threatened to harm anyone.

Allow me to make a distinction: my post here is not about Open Salon. It's about Core membership in Salon, big Salon, one of the few places where investigative journalism thrives, and where Progressive values and policies are debated, and, when they make sense, promoted. Support Salon, is what my post is about. I stand by that.

And Lew, do come over to dtms, join, and comment. We have a conservative columnist, Con Chapman, who is a brilliant writer. We have scientists and teachers and tech people, like me. We welcome all kinds of POVs, and only require civil discourse and an attempt at critical thinking. Even with over 300 Members we have yet to reach a tipping point of traffic and commenting. We need thinkers and writers. All the best to you.
I have been a core member in the past but haven't got the funds for it at this time. I will be core again some day.
Hey Greg. I see somebody finally started filtering the sporting event spam on the site. I hope that my needling was instrumental in facilitating that event. Like I said here and elsewhere, it was a trivial fix.
I swear . . . I vowed to reread.
I was not gonna do a comment.
Then -
I got a Salon PopUp. Honest.
It read:
`
"Something went wrong."
`
I get a bunch of them here.
`
On Halloween . . .
`
a editor
painting his head
green with stick deodorant
`
My granddaughter said to me:
`
Pa Pa -

You are now old enough
to buy - Mennonite stick
deodorant for armpits
`