I was writing a reply to a comment in another thread of mine—and the notion of another Civil War worked its way into the response. I considered it an acceptable bit of hyperbole when I wrote it, but it got me to thinking.
The ingredients are there—we have become so politically polarized lately the differences are no longer the stuff of energetic discussion, but rather have taken on the flavor of hatred. We no long have a party in power being contained by a loyal opposition, but instead we have a party trying to govern and a party in bitter, unyielding opposition.
And the Republican primary fiasco is highlighting the regional characteristics of the separation and alienation. We have areas…states…where the messages have to be structured to suit a super reactionary audience that broaches little talk of negotiation or compromise.
I recall a discussion I had with my sister back when the Supreme Court was deciding Bush v. Gore in 2000. Although we both hoped for a Gore victory, we also acknowledged that we had fears about that outcome…worries about how the conservatives would react. Both of us, at some point, suggested it might be better for our side to lose that battle—in a not-completely-facetious concession that doing so might be the only way to insure that the Union remain intact.
I wonder about that now. I don’t think it unrealistic to suppose that if Barack Obama were to be re-elected, there would be lots more talk about secession in places like Alaska, Texas, and South Carolina, to name just a few.
Any thoughts? Is it far-fetched in your opinion?
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Jan Sand
ThroughMyEyes
Andrew E. Mathis
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Comments
Walter good point that an economic class war probably is more likely than a geo-political war.
Myriad…but we are!!!
Firechick…it is frightening, but not impossible. And the fact that it is not impossible is frightening of itself.
DH I certainly agree with the “on-line” personas not representing the off-line ones. I consider that to be part of the problem with on-line discussions. But there are plenty of people talking about breaking away.
HERE IS MY QUESTION FOR ALL OF YOU:
Do you think the amount and volume of talk about secession (already quit frequent and quite loud) in places like Texas, Alaska, and South Carolina…will increase appreciably if Obama were to win re-election?
Especially consider a scenario like the Bush v. Gore one…but going in the opposite direction.
The French Revolution popped into my head the other day. Hmmm
Depending on the Republican nominee, a Bush v. Gore repeat in the same direction could prompt secession talk from unlikely places.
Overall, any further division will be, like Walter mentioned, based on socio-economic grounds. I expected as much back in the mid '90s, and can only say I'm surprised the public has waited this long to react. I wouldn't want to see things reach the level of the race riots of the 60's, but I expected something like the Occupy movement to have happened long before now.
-R-
It really isn't worth fighting over.
Such as: (my secret hope) : Obama rising to Lincoln height.
Like:
"These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert to fleece the people, and now that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel."
Speech to Illinois legislature, (January 1837);
I really hate the term "Civil War." What's so civil about war? (Yes, I know how the war of secession got the name "civil war.")
I've actually been thinking of writing about this for a while now. Politics, especially over the past few years, and democracy itself have gotten so far away from what they were originally intended. I say it's time for a new revolution, another war of secession.
Really, how have we gotten to the point where the government is sanctioning the rape of women??? If the founding fathers were here today, they would shake their heads in confusion and shame. (Then they would probably emigrate to somewhere in europe.)
Changes need to be made...very drastic ones.
/r.
The divide between the parties seems to be growing. The financial divide is widening at an alarming rate. There continues to be a racial divide.
I do think out of control civil unrest is very much a possibility. It might be good for us.
The traitors, the haters, the seditious To"R"y former King Charles Royalist Cavalier scumbags and their ridicules brainwashed ignorant, credulous and hating imbecile flat earth society followers are, and always have been, right where we left them the last time we kicked the crap out of em'- right down South and to the Midwest.
That said, let Tejas secede- Mexico can't wait to get it back and could now very easily take it over in a heartbeat ... God Willin' and the Damn Don't Break!
This is the final battle, they are nearly done ... good riddance to the worst rubbish on the whole damn Planet ... the legacy of Rome and the "Holy" Roman Empire and all the Cavaliers who so, so, so wished they could be like their Habsburg heroes, but cannot as those days is done.
Come On Frank!!!!!!!
it must be hard. what happened to the warm fuzzy feeling of all of us on the left enraged at the outrageousness of the Bush regime and united against the foolish on the right who were helping the one percenters screw all of us not even getting what they were doing (those who get caught up in jingoism, xenophobia, racism, all sorts of culturally divisive issues, played so easily by the Karl Rove types). We all on the left then felt spiritually on the right side of history. Frustrated but united. Holding our breaths and praying for the day when Bush was GONE and all his amoral cronies.
You act like we moved, Frank, and betrayed the "base." We didn't betray the so-called Dem base. Obama did. He moved or maybe he didn't move, the Dem party leadership had moved more than we thought and was corrupt and captured by the corporatists and their pr consultants like the Axelrods.
We did not move in our moral stance. And we are not moving. We are still against all those violations of the Bush administration now going on with the Obama administration despite the spin and fear-mongering re Republicans. A craven game, and they have lots of garnered electioneering money on both sides to try to jam the radar of our individual consciences in the upcoming assault of media spin prior to election 2012.
There is sizable number of disenfranchised people of conscience on the left the media mocks as non-pragmatic and minimizes or simply refuses to acknowledge the existence of. I am grateful for this segment. There is a force of conscience on the left, who maintain that just cuz Obama represents Team Dem he doesn't get a free pass.
Obama is continuing to promote the atrocities of Bush, he is continuing to dismantle the constitution. It gives us cold comfort in that Obama is doing those said things more slowly (which is sadly bullshit) than one of the clowns from the Republican party would be doing it according to the shell dwellers of Team Dem. That is supposedly better than nuthin'? We have to eat "lesser evilism" sh*t and smile to stay in tact as a collective force politically, even though it means enabling anti-humanitarianism and anti-ethics and anti-law?
I say if the Democratic Party is to be rebuilt the union could happen if the Obama centrists really chose the old principles of the Dem party and not the we want it both ways Dem party leaders, who want their cake and to eat it too. Who want everyone to keep on being conned by their game of "look how hard we are trying against those Republican meanies." Poor little Obama at the helm has no power. Obama squandered an opportunity to turn the ship around post Bush. Not only did he squander it with ineptness, he embraced the corruption and illegality. He would have had a lot to fight, but come on. He never even tried.
I call it tough love against my progressive brethren, Frank, principle above "personality of the President" and principle above Party and when the Party has betrayed you, cronyism civility does not and should not protect it.
I think we should link up with people no matter what party. We are all part of the bottom 99% . We better start getting resourceful about the authoritarian 1 percent that Obama is beholding to and actually one of. We all better wake up to reality and hopefully get on the same I am praying moral page.
I have no idea if Obama is an authoritarian or an authoritarian follower. Either way we are getting screwed as is the globe by him at the helm. Cold comfort one of the Republicans might be there instead of him. Wake up to the cognitive dissonance buzz of what Obama is doing. With some of us it is a siren but it must be at least a buzz to all of us as a nation.
I am not going to give Obama a pass because people are vilifying him out of their racism, etc. That doesn't make me want to crony up with him. I think they are wrong, but that doesn't make Obama right. I want to demand from him respect for me and the citizenry and the laws of this country and the sanctity of human life globally.
Divide up and conquer is the favored M.O. of the American government. Look at how well they have done by divvying up and destabilizing other countries. Why the US is even covertly working with al Qaeda in Libya and now Syria, whoever will help it dismantle a nation state that has the nerve to not be a puppet to the western nations and is ripe for the economic and environmental raping.
I feel more exasperated at my fellow citizens for not really getting who the real enemy is. The far left OR the far right is not the real enemy to loyalist Centrist Dems and that needs addressing despite what MSNBC claims. It is the corrupt sell-outs playing propaganda games via the media to destroy our republic and make us all struggling indentured servants to the robber class.
sorry to go on so long.
libby
LE Those were the reasons I picked those three states. Actually there has been plenty of talk about secession in Texas, Alaska, South Carolina…and Tennessee. I hope it doesn’t happen…and if it does, I hope the break-up doesn’t lead to another Civil War.
Designanator…I think there is more talk of it than you realize.
Nick…I understand your feelings, but as others point out, it might make more sense to stress the points that bind rather than the ones that cause stress.
Jim Indeed, anything is possible these days. We certainly need a Lincoln or a Washington or an FDR right now.
Heinz, I agree with some of the remarks you made to Nick…but you are doing the mirror image in many of your remarks. We all gotta get along…and we will be able to manage our problems better together than in tatters.
Gary Some give on both sides of the aisle makes the most sense. I hope EVERYONE finally comes to grips with that.
Onislandtime I certainly hope it doesn’t happen. Interesting your remark about the ones gripping the most being the ones getting the most federal money. Gotta check on that.
Dandylion If it happens, it will be a lot bigger than an attack on Ft. Sumter.
Desert Rat I hope we can get through this hard period without civil bloodshed!
Jejune There are times when being an old goat has its advantages…and these black days are one of those times.
Jan I guess to an ex-patriot there is nothing to preserve. Some of us think differently. You have to deal with that half empty glass.
Ordinary Joe There is plenty worth saving about America. I doubt Jan will be able to furnish you with a list.
Oahusurfer…I still think the best way for everyone to go…is toward reconciliation. If we break out in civil unrest…it could mean horrible things happen to every country on the planet.
Kathy …not sure if the “YOU ARE SPOT ON” was meant for me or Oahusurfers remarks, but I thank you for posting.
(Hope I got back to everyone. Thanks for considering my remarks...and for responding.)
apisa (sh*t) and jejune podiatrist (caracellas ameneuseus) foam at the mouth, when confronted by a gentile gentleman like Jan who deals strictly in FACTS.
From all the keyings my car has received in the last year or so, because I have anti tee bag stickers on it. I know how they think. If Obama wins again, these assholes will not stop anything to get their way!
Which is why my bags remain packed and ready!
In any case, I did not see how you felt about the subject of this thread, so if you want to comment on that, I would certainly consider it.
Abrawang I hope you are correct. I think the chances of another Civil War are small…but the fact that the chances are still with us bothers me.
Kathy Thanks. I was hoping that was your intent.
MrsRaptor Thanks for the comment. There are many days when I am as pessimistic as you on the issue, which was the reason I posted the thread.
OrdinaryJoe I appreciate your comment to Libby…and agree with it. Libby is a forceful advocate for how she feels and I understand the strong feelings she has about the situation in our country. I just disagree with her about how to deal with it.
Kenny sorry about the damage to your car. I have an old car, but I still stay away from bumper stickers because I don’t want my tires sliced!
Jan Sorry about the problems that caused you to leave America. I have a niece with severe problems who gets lots and lots of aid…so some do get help here. I hope there comes a day where more help for everyone in need is the standard. We still have problems here in America…but the fact that we do is not a reason to lash out at it the way you do so often. As for Joe and Jejune, I appreciate their comments and do not think them out of line.
Margaret I hope you are right that.
Oahusurfer I am glad there is at least one place in America where sanity between the races is the norm rather than something that happens occasionally. I've never visited Hawaii, but I hope to correct that at some point before leaving the world.
You are correct that some of the crap that still goes on in America is unacceptable. I hope we all finally grow up. I'd be interested to know if there is any talk about secession in Hawaii...as there often is in Alaska.
My hope lies in the fact that for all the hate being spewed, the only people actually killing others for political reasons in the US (at least since Oklahoma City) are individual nut cases.
If you peak into the cesspools of certain right-wing sites at the daily hate, you realie that those posters are either A. Venting their feelings and nothing else. of B. Planning to start shooting in this civil war. Evidence so far is that they're still comfortable sitting before their computers venting. Gotta get up, go outside to start a war.
Jan, I am sorry to see our best and brightest resort to ad hominems here. If you had read my very brief comment carefully you'd have realized that I understood your comment to mean you thought the founding ideals were hypocritical. Mistakes abound when the heat rises. I agree that the subsequent diversions from those principles have been horrible. Anyway, congratulations for having the foresight to marry someone from a progressive, clean, blameless, and very wealthy country.
It's an interesting way of putting it. I didn't plan on my son being hit by a reckless driver and rendered quadriplegic on a respirator for the rest of his life when I married my wife.
it is remarkablefor Jan not only to have kept sane but also to have retained his ability for clear analysis.
It takes an extremely high,extraordinary amount of strength and willpower as well as strong personality to overcome these tragic events.
Frank,your remark towards Jan is inadequate.
Ordinaryjoe:
If you were interested in starting a dialogue with Jan,you'd be highly rewarded.
There is an interesting article in the NY Times about an executive who is quitting his position because he cannot stand the vicious attitudes that dominate the country. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/opinion/why-i-am-leaving-goldman-sachs.html
This is what dominates the country.
When the demonstrations started and the police tried to stop it,those were clear signs of matters getting out of control.
Since when is it usus for the police to beat up demonstraters or to officially be allowed to use pepper spray?
What other signs do you need in order to realize how far the cicil order has become imbalanced?
99/1=is a very clear sign,stating that things need to be changed drastically.
I for a long time believe that another civil war could happen any day in the US.
All it needs is a match to start a fire.
I find it quite fascinating, Frank, and rather clarifying on your sense of civility and that you are so appreciative that I am called a stupid piece of shit. The analytical qualities in that qualification miss me entirely, but that seems to be something of a problem with people who are not knowledgeable on America's policies of supporting many of the most repressive governments throughout the world throughout much of its history.
Jan, you regularly speak down to people in your posts…and show a tremendous amount of scorn for people with whom you disagree. You are, I will acknowledge, more subtle than others…but you do it regularly nonetheless.
You were called some names; I did not call you those names. That kind of crap goes on in Internet discussions…and I simply take it to be a part of participation in the process.
I have been called names regularly…and I don’t sit around crying about it.
Suck it up.
Heidi, you wrote:
Frank,your remark towards Jan is inadequate.
What, exactly, are you telling me I was supposed to say? I will consider revising what I have said to Jan if I see merit in your suggestions. Jan, by the way, has not been particularly pleasant toward me for quite some time...so he is not blameless if there is a tiny bit of animosity.
Please, Jan…stop the nonsense. I have not accepted that type of insult hurling—nor have I indicated that I think I consider it “civil behavior.” Frankly, I think it is unfortunate some of the name-calling happens, but on the Internet it happens often enough to be considered “the norm.”
When it happens to me, I laugh it off. I don’t cry about it…and I don’t ask that the remarks be monitored or expunged. You ought to give that method of handling it a try.
But if it bothers you too much to simply laugh it off…have a go back at ‘em. I am not going to do that job for you.
Frankly, Jan…although I tried to be pleasant and courteous with you for a long time, you constantly rejected that kind of thing and engaged in taunting for no reason that I’ve ever been able to determine. Quite honestly, I think you do as much of that kind of thing (albeit more subtly) as anyone else. The words “sauce” “goose” and “gander” all come to mind.
And surfer, if the USA were so fond of the KKK how come Obama was elected? The rabid idiots in he Tea Party may be noisy but not particularly effective. What's disturbing to me is Obama breaking so many promises. He had a hell of a great mandate when he was elected and he blew it.
I no longer consider myself a conservative or liberal, democrat or republican. I am an american first and will work with those regardless of party, faith, or label. My personal observation is the longer someone stays in office the less likely they are to work for the people and worry more about staying in power. So maybe if there is a real clean sweep of congress, the new ones will work for this country again instead of themselves.
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I'm with Erica. French revolution!
Anyhow, the world doesn't need and hopefully won't ever get another October Revolution, Final Solution or (heaven forbid) Hiroshima. Though I will say that if certain benighted states did seriously decide to break away from the union, I'm not so sure that's an entirely bad thing.