If I haven't dissed it--it ain't worth dissing!

Frank Apisa

Frank Apisa
Piscataway, New Jersey, USA
August 09
On a political continuum with Extreme Liberal at 1 and Extreme Conservative at 10, I can be found at position “P.” I get a chuckle at much of what passes for liberal thought, but don’t much chuckle at anything conservative. Quite frankly, I consider American conservatism to be one of the most dangerous pieces of garbage ever to pollute the planet Earth. A major problem with this mindset is occasioned by the fact that I am a 72 year old, white male who works at a county golf course in one of the richest, most conservative counties in the United States. Since I get free golf (at five county courses) as part of my compensation package, I play 4 – 5 times a week. Bottom line: Goddam near everyone I work with or play golf with, almost all of whom are 70+ year old white, males, is a die-hard conservative. I love each and every one of ‘em—love every bone in their heads. Truly! Sure is a tough haul, though—‘cause I am not given to holding my tongue. Just think of all the fun I have at work and play! Don’tcha envy me?

Frank Apisa's Links
MARCH 13, 2012 3:45PM


Rate: 22 Flag


I was writing a reply to a comment in another thread of mine—and the notion of another Civil War worked its way into the response. I considered it an acceptable bit of hyperbole when I wrote it, but it got me to thinking.


The ingredients are there—we have become so politically polarized lately the differences are no longer the stuff of energetic discussion, but rather have taken on the flavor of hatred. We no long have a party in power being contained by a loyal opposition, but instead we have a party trying to govern and a party in bitter, unyielding opposition.


And the Republican primary fiasco is highlighting the regional characteristics of the separation and alienation. We have areas…states…where the messages have to be structured to suit a super reactionary audience that broaches little talk of negotiation or compromise.  


I recall a discussion I had with my sister back when the Supreme Court was deciding Bush v. Gore in 2000. Although we both hoped for a Gore victory, we also acknowledged that we had fears about that outcome…worries about how the conservatives would react. Both of us, at some point, suggested it might be better for our side to lose that battle—in a not-completely-facetious concession that doing so might be the only way to insure that the Union remain intact.  


I wonder about that now. I don’t think it unrealistic to suppose that if Barack Obama were to be re-elected, there would be lots more talk about secession in places like Alaska, Texas, and South Carolina, to name just a few.


Any thoughts? Is it far-fetched in your opinion?

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Frank, as crazy as things are in this country I find it hard to believe it would devolve into a civil war. That's not to say we couldn't experience additional home grown terrorism and have tragic Oklahoma City-type events happening if some people feel things aren't going their way.
I doubt that a "civil war" could happen, especially one based on "geo-political" divisions. A civil war based on economic class is something else altogether. Who knows and I pray that it never comes to that.
Jeez, I thought you guys already were!
The thought is so frightening that I can't even go there.
I suppose anything is possible. But the passion we so artfully fake for on-line communities, such as this one, in my opinion, translate poorly to the street, where it is cold, and we might have to actually stand up for what we believe in, in the flesh, not hiding behind the avatars we embolden with convictions we are incapable of maintaing in our real lives for even enough time to wait paitently in line at Burger King.
Designanator Thanks for the comment. I have a question I will ask everyone here after I’ve replied to each poster. Hope you take the time to respond to it.

Walter good point that an economic class war probably is more likely than a geo-political war.

Myriad…but we are!!!

Firechick…it is frightening, but not impossible. And the fact that it is not impossible is frightening of itself.

DH I certainly agree with the “on-line” personas not representing the off-line ones. I consider that to be part of the problem with on-line discussions. But there are plenty of people talking about breaking away.


Do you think the amount and volume of talk about secession (already quit frequent and quite loud) in places like Texas, Alaska, and South Carolina…will increase appreciably if Obama were to win re-election?

Especially consider a scenario like the Bush v. Gore one…but going in the opposite direction.
I have been thinking this for about six months. There is such a divide of opinion, understanding and wealth. I think that is enough people suffered, something might happen, something a little stronger than the Occupy Wall Street movement.

The French Revolution popped into my head the other day. Hmmm
Secession, possibly. My daughter in college has been in the habit of saying since high school, democracy is really an experiment, we are in the experiment. With that in mind, it is possible for the system to implode in one way or the other.
Increased talk of secession in Texas? Since the egos are bigger in Texas than elsewhere (like everything else), that's possible. Alaska? Also possible, given its remoteness from the Lower 48. South Carolina? They led the charge the first time, so I'd call that an almost given.
Depending on the Republican nominee, a Bush v. Gore repeat in the same direction could prompt secession talk from unlikely places.
Overall, any further division will be, like Walter mentioned, based on socio-economic grounds. I expected as much back in the mid '90s, and can only say I'm surprised the public has waited this long to react. I wouldn't want to see things reach the level of the race riots of the 60's, but I expected something like the Occupy movement to have happened long before now.
Frank, given the high probability that the president will win a second term and seeing no talk of secession at this time, I would say the answer is no. Also, if the economy continues to improve and the unemployment rate goes down further that will help to keep the population somewhat happier than it would be otherwise.
I wouldn't mind cutting the South loose.

It really isn't worth fighting over.
Nothing these End Days is far-fetched, Frank.
Such as: (my secret hope) : Obama rising to Lincoln height.
"These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert to fleece the people, and now that they have got into a quarrel with themselves, we are called upon to appropriate the people's money to settle the quarrel."
Speech to Illinois legislature, (January 1837);
Nick...really? We wouldn't mind being on our own away from all you damn yankees. Just a bunch of stuck up, pretentious, idiotic assholes. As proven by your comment.

I really hate the term "Civil War." What's so civil about war? (Yes, I know how the war of secession got the name "civil war.")

I've actually been thinking of writing about this for a while now. Politics, especially over the past few years, and democracy itself have gotten so far away from what they were originally intended. I say it's time for a new revolution, another war of secession.

Really, how have we gotten to the point where the government is sanctioning the rape of women??? If the founding fathers were here today, they would shake their heads in confusion and shame. (Then they would probably emigrate to somewhere in europe.)

Changes need to be made...very drastic ones.
I understand why this question would be posted, albeit due to emotions. the facts are the states that yell secession the loudest are the ones most reliant on federal money. So I think not. Fun to throw out for discussion, though....
Time to station extra guards around Fort Sumter.
It does seem far fetched, but at the same time, if the far right was to get their way I would not want to have anything to do with a country they are running.

The divide between the parties seems to be growing. The financial divide is widening at an alarming rate. There continues to be a racial divide.

I do think out of control civil unrest is very much a possibility. It might be good for us.
BTW, I agree with Heinz. That was one stupid comment Nick. If you paint all of the south with one brush, you also paint yourself as a fool.
Oh what a bunch of bullshit. I see by your photo that you are an old man, and you should have some of the wisdom of an old man. There is a lot of loose talk, and hyperbole, about explosions, riots, civil wars. The Amerikan peeples are now too fat and sloppy and lazy to engage in any real killing. It's the obesity epidemic, the prevalence of Food Stamps, the availability of the Internet as a place for safe fantasizing, the dominance of women in today's society with their ethos of negotiation, more and more, etc., all of which militates against a civil war. There are not enough GUTS available anywhere for even a fart fight. What a joke!...As an old fuck you should know better yerself...wink
Since, as a unified nation, the wealth of the country is being plundered for idiotic brutal wars supported by an unmonitored and voracious military that obviously does not know how to use its powers properly, that the public treasury is regularly used to prop up the open criminals who are regularly being reimbursed for their monstrously corrupt exercises in scamming the public, since the basic social and material infrastructure is rotting away for lack of funds in education, health, and maintenance of roads and bridges and other essentials, since the Constitutional guarantees have been ignored as to standard legal procedures and a few other obvious indications that even the hypocritical ideal of the country have become meaningless, what is worthwhile in preserving the country as a unified entity?
Jan, I was following that intricate sentence pretty well up to the end. Do you think the founding ideals of the USA are hypocritical? If so, in what way?
Frank, you can see for yourself what a stupid piece of shit this Jan Sandman is. EVERYTHING is rotten with Amerika. The stoopid piece of shit Jan Sand, a NORDIC intellectual, says so. How beneath contempt this dialogue is...(pissing in Jan's mouth, I bet he likes that!)
Yes, I know that universal suffrage was not on the menu in 1776, but what else?
Frank- brother, that WAR never ended ... how could anyone think otherwise? History tells us the VERY SECOND the traitorous seditious hating Confederates "supposedly" surrendered (um, got their @$$es kicked) the "supposedly" now defunct Confederate Army and officers immediately started the White League, Red Shirts, and eventually the Klan and started killing Blacks by the thousands, IMMEDIATELY. Check the history on this, my brother. Then came the lies of Reconstruction (total WhiteWash) followed by the demonization of the Black Man (who formerly had been described as gentile by Southern Cracker Haters) into a criminal, the abduction, chain-gang slavery, rape and continued lynchings and murders all the way through the Nadir, then came the "supposedly" good parts of the country becoming Sundown Towns and joining the Klan (yes it was nationwide until the Indiana scandal- if he'd raped a black woman instead of a white one they'd still be in business- oooooppps, they still are!) then came forced drafts into a segregated Armed Forces, the obvious Jim Crow hate, and finally, after helping us win not one but two World Wars, Blacks and others had enough and went to the mat for their rights, LBJ was a hero for this country in forcing them by gunpoint to be re-established (despite his lack of abilities overseas) and no one knew better than a rural Texan what he was up against ... so we got the Civil and Voting Rights Acts which the KKK (yes, that's who they are- no blinders allowed) are trying to overturn with today's new anti-minority and young people voting restrictions ... why do you think Jim Crow states are forced by law to get approvals!!!

The traitors, the haters, the seditious To"R"y former King Charles Royalist Cavalier scumbags and their ridicules brainwashed ignorant, credulous and hating imbecile flat earth society followers are, and always have been, right where we left them the last time we kicked the crap out of em'- right down South and to the Midwest.

That said, let Tejas secede- Mexico can't wait to get it back and could now very easily take it over in a heartbeat ... God Willin' and the Damn Don't Break!

This is the final battle, they are nearly done ... good riddance to the worst rubbish on the whole damn Planet ... the legacy of Rome and the "Holy" Roman Empire and all the Cavaliers who so, so, so wished they could be like their Habsburg heroes, but cannot as those days is done.

Come On Frank!!!!!!!
the poor, besieged centrist faux-left.

it must be hard. what happened to the warm fuzzy feeling of all of us on the left enraged at the outrageousness of the Bush regime and united against the foolish on the right who were helping the one percenters screw all of us not even getting what they were doing (those who get caught up in jingoism, xenophobia, racism, all sorts of culturally divisive issues, played so easily by the Karl Rove types). We all on the left then felt spiritually on the right side of history. Frustrated but united. Holding our breaths and praying for the day when Bush was GONE and all his amoral cronies.

You act like we moved, Frank, and betrayed the "base." We didn't betray the so-called Dem base. Obama did. He moved or maybe he didn't move, the Dem party leadership had moved more than we thought and was corrupt and captured by the corporatists and their pr consultants like the Axelrods.

We did not move in our moral stance. And we are not moving. We are still against all those violations of the Bush administration now going on with the Obama administration despite the spin and fear-mongering re Republicans. A craven game, and they have lots of garnered electioneering money on both sides to try to jam the radar of our individual consciences in the upcoming assault of media spin prior to election 2012.

There is sizable number of disenfranchised people of conscience on the left the media mocks as non-pragmatic and minimizes or simply refuses to acknowledge the existence of. I am grateful for this segment. There is a force of conscience on the left, who maintain that just cuz Obama represents Team Dem he doesn't get a free pass.

Obama is continuing to promote the atrocities of Bush, he is continuing to dismantle the constitution. It gives us cold comfort in that Obama is doing those said things more slowly (which is sadly bullshit) than one of the clowns from the Republican party would be doing it according to the shell dwellers of Team Dem. That is supposedly better than nuthin'? We have to eat "lesser evilism" sh*t and smile to stay in tact as a collective force politically, even though it means enabling anti-humanitarianism and anti-ethics and anti-law?

I say if the Democratic Party is to be rebuilt the union could happen if the Obama centrists really chose the old principles of the Dem party and not the we want it both ways Dem party leaders, who want their cake and to eat it too. Who want everyone to keep on being conned by their game of "look how hard we are trying against those Republican meanies." Poor little Obama at the helm has no power. Obama squandered an opportunity to turn the ship around post Bush. Not only did he squander it with ineptness, he embraced the corruption and illegality. He would have had a lot to fight, but come on. He never even tried.

I call it tough love against my progressive brethren, Frank, principle above "personality of the President" and principle above Party and when the Party has betrayed you, cronyism civility does not and should not protect it.

I think we should link up with people no matter what party. We are all part of the bottom 99% . We better start getting resourceful about the authoritarian 1 percent that Obama is beholding to and actually one of. We all better wake up to reality and hopefully get on the same I am praying moral page.

I have no idea if Obama is an authoritarian or an authoritarian follower. Either way we are getting screwed as is the globe by him at the helm. Cold comfort one of the Republicans might be there instead of him. Wake up to the cognitive dissonance buzz of what Obama is doing. With some of us it is a siren but it must be at least a buzz to all of us as a nation.

I am not going to give Obama a pass because people are vilifying him out of their racism, etc. That doesn't make me want to crony up with him. I think they are wrong, but that doesn't make Obama right. I want to demand from him respect for me and the citizenry and the laws of this country and the sanctity of human life globally.

Divide up and conquer is the favored M.O. of the American government. Look at how well they have done by divvying up and destabilizing other countries. Why the US is even covertly working with al Qaeda in Libya and now Syria, whoever will help it dismantle a nation state that has the nerve to not be a puppet to the western nations and is ripe for the economic and environmental raping.

I feel more exasperated at my fellow citizens for not really getting who the real enemy is. The far left OR the far right is not the real enemy to loyalist Centrist Dems and that needs addressing despite what MSNBC claims. It is the corrupt sell-outs playing propaganda games via the media to destroy our republic and make us all struggling indentured servants to the robber class.

sorry to go on so long.

It is far-fetched Frank. There may be more talk but that will be the extent of it. A couple of times I've said facetiously that maybe it would be better to let a chunk of the country hive off so the Tea Partiers and their ilk can try out that fend-for-yourself society where religion is central, where evolution enjoys the status of phrenology, where abortions are outlawed and where contraception is harder to come by than Maui Wowie. Just so long as those Armageddon types don't also get the nukes.
Sheila…loved that French Revolution remark. It would be an interesting way to end the experiment.

LE Those were the reasons I picked those three states. Actually there has been plenty of talk about secession in Texas, Alaska, South Carolina…and Tennessee. I hope it doesn’t happen…and if it does, I hope the break-up doesn’t lead to another Civil War.

Designanator…I think there is more talk of it than you realize.

Nick…I understand your feelings, but as others point out, it might make more sense to stress the points that bind rather than the ones that cause stress.

Jim Indeed, anything is possible these days. We certainly need a Lincoln or a Washington or an FDR right now.

Heinz, I agree with some of the remarks you made to Nick…but you are doing the mirror image in many of your remarks. We all gotta get along…and we will be able to manage our problems better together than in tatters.

Gary Some give on both sides of the aisle makes the most sense. I hope EVERYONE finally comes to grips with that.

Onislandtime I certainly hope it doesn’t happen. Interesting your remark about the ones gripping the most being the ones getting the most federal money. Gotta check on that.

Dandylion If it happens, it will be a lot bigger than an attack on Ft. Sumter.

Desert Rat I hope we can get through this hard period without civil bloodshed!

Jejune There are times when being an old goat has its advantages…and these black days are one of those times.

Jan I guess to an ex-patriot there is nothing to preserve. Some of us think differently. You have to deal with that half empty glass.

Ordinary Joe There is plenty worth saving about America. I doubt Jan will be able to furnish you with a list.

Oahusurfer…I still think the best way for everyone to go…is toward reconciliation. If we break out in civil unrest…it could mean horrible things happen to every country on the planet.

Kathy …not sure if the “YOU ARE SPOT ON” was meant for me or Oahusurfers remarks, but I thank you for posting.

(Hope I got back to everyone. Thanks for considering my remarks...and for responding.) guys posted while I was writing. Gotta go right now, but I will respond to you tomorrow.
Libby, why You try to reason with fRANK as if he is an adult capable of understanding facts is beyond me.

apisa (sh*t) and jejune podiatrist (caracellas ameneuseus) foam at the mouth, when confronted by a gentile gentleman like Jan who deals strictly in FACTS.
I meant I agree with you Frank.
Frank, I have been expecting it for about 5 years now... "Could" it happen? Sure. "Will" it happen? Quite possibly.
@libby: Thank you for expressing those thoughts in a civilized manner. I don't agree with everything you say, but I respect your perseverance. Obviously, on a forum like this one person's "facts" are another's opinions and yet another's lies, but thinking people understand that.
Frank, the way things are right now. I would half expect it to happen!
From all the keyings my car has received in the last year or so, because I have anti tee bag stickers on it. I know how they think. If Obama wins again, these assholes will not stop anything to get their way!

Which is why my bags remain packed and ready!
I am rather fascinated by Ordinary Joe and Jejune Podiatrist. There is, after all, something to be said for a reasonable knowledge of the history of slavery, of murderous elimination of the original inhabitants, of the violence involved in the labor movement's struggles for proper wages and working conditions, for the horrifying treatment of minorities still very present in the country, for the maintenance of suppression of blacks even up to the present day well after they were liberated from slavery. This, apparently is a total blank in the minds of these ignorant two. I find this weird and unfortunately darkly humorous. I live outside the States now because I could find help for my American born son who, was frightfully injured and made quadriplegic at the age of three, It was only in my wife's country, Finland where the President, Kekkonen, expressly and generously granted my sons Finnish citizenship in order to accept my son into the Finnish hospital system. My native country, the USA, was totally deaf to my pleas for help. The difference in attitude of the two countries was, it seems to me, rather striking and something central to my feelings.
Are you talking about a civil war like the first one, with people taking up arms against each other? That's not going to happen for a lot of reasons, number one being the military. And states seceding - over an election? I don't think so. States don't have the right to secede. There may be polarization but there's also apathy and conditions would have to be dramatically worse for a whole lot of people before anything like a civil war could happen. And what exactly would it be fought over anyway? The Occupy movement didn't exactly unite a nation. Things have been a lot worse in this country and there wasn't talk of civil war. It ain't happening.
Frank, "reconciliation" with this crowed is nothing more than how Bush pushed through his tax dodges, er, cuts ... that's about as far as that will go ... the level of cowardice and denial of US Mainland Whites is staggering and so it won't happen the way you dream of, instead they will simply die off and the young, for the most part, will evolve and forget what we went through. Now, reconciliation is totally possible between colonizers and the abused, the Kama'aina Haole of Hawaii are brave White Folks who long ago admitted what their forefathers did, and now we have our peace here and all live together as one ... but, they aren't cowards, or ignorant or still seeped in absurd anti science prejudice and hate, in fact, they helped grow our BLACK HAWAIIAN FEARLESS LEADER and as a result, despite the far left fantasy land, have perhaps saved the world!
The criticism of Obama is not rationally based on whether he is Hawaiian or black or fearless, it is based on his totally weak response to people out of homes, jobs, health and education. And of his toying with further wars that are based only on whether they will reward the multi-national corporations that have effectively abandoned the USA to unemployment and low wages and financial insecurity. It might be helpful if he was a bit afraid.
Libby, you did not “go on too long.” You had lots to say…and you said it. Good. I disagree with you on most of how you think we ought to proceed right now, but you already know my position on that. I remind you once again that I am NOT a Democrat.

In any case, I did not see how you felt about the subject of this thread, so if you want to comment on that, I would certainly consider it.

Abrawang I hope you are correct. I think the chances of another Civil War are small…but the fact that the chances are still with us bothers me.

Kathy Thanks. I was hoping that was your intent.

MrsRaptor Thanks for the comment. There are many days when I am as pessimistic as you on the issue, which was the reason I posted the thread.

OrdinaryJoe I appreciate your comment to Libby…and agree with it. Libby is a forceful advocate for how she feels and I understand the strong feelings she has about the situation in our country. I just disagree with her about how to deal with it.

Kenny sorry about the damage to your car. I have an old car, but I still stay away from bumper stickers because I don’t want my tires sliced!

Jan Sorry about the problems that caused you to leave America. I have a niece with severe problems who gets lots and lots of aid…so some do get help here. I hope there comes a day where more help for everyone in need is the standard. We still have problems here in America…but the fact that we do is not a reason to lash out at it the way you do so often. As for Joe and Jejune, I appreciate their comments and do not think them out of line.

Margaret I hope you are right that.

Oahusurfer I am glad there is at least one place in America where sanity between the races is the norm rather than something that happens occasionally. I've never visited Hawaii, but I hope to correct that at some point before leaving the world.

You are correct that some of the crap that still goes on in America is unacceptable. I hope we all finally grow up. I'd be interested to know if there is any talk about secession in there often is in Alaska.
This thought of civil war runs through my brain at my most paranoid (realistic?) moments.

My hope lies in the fact that for all the hate being spewed, the only people actually killing others for political reasons in the US (at least since Oklahoma City) are individual nut cases.

If you peak into the cesspools of certain right-wing sites at the daily hate, you realie that those posters are either A. Venting their feelings and nothing else. of B. Planning to start shooting in this civil war. Evidence so far is that they're still comfortable sitting before their computers venting. Gotta get up, go outside to start a war.
I find it quite fascinating, Frank, and rather clarifying on your sense of civility and that you are so appreciative that I am called a stupid piece of shit. The analytical qualities in that qualification miss me entirely, but that seems to be something of a problem with people who are not knowledgeable on America's policies of supporting many of the most repressive governments throughout the world throughout much of its history.
If I lived some place like Idaho or Alabama I would definitely be concerned, but I doubt if real violence would be more than local.

Jan, I am sorry to see our best and brightest resort to ad hominems here. If you had read my very brief comment carefully you'd have realized that I understood your comment to mean you thought the founding ideals were hypocritical. Mistakes abound when the heat rises. I agree that the subsequent diversions from those principles have been horrible. Anyway, congratulations for having the foresight to marry someone from a progressive, clean, blameless, and very wealthy country.

It's an interesting way of putting it. I didn't plan on my son being hit by a reckless driver and rendered quadriplegic on a respirator for the rest of his life when I married my wife.
I know, and I am deeply sorry.
For someone who has been betrayed by his own country,also by the country where the fatal accident occured,
it is remarkablefor Jan not only to have kept sane but also to have retained his ability for clear analysis.
It takes an extremely high,extraordinary amount of strength and willpower as well as strong personality to overcome these tragic events.

Frank,your remark towards Jan is inadequate.

If you were interested in starting a dialogue with Jan,you'd be highly rewarded.
My revelation about my son was not to elicit sympathy, it was about a comparison of the general attitudes in the USA and those in Finland. The wealth in Finland is in no way comparable to that of the USA but the poor, the sick, the troubled in the USA are blamed for their misfortunes rather than granted help to bring them back into society to make them productive and useful. The concept that the USA would confer citizenship on a foreigner in order to spend money and effort to give a desperate person some sort of decent life is almost ludicrous. It's a mean nation and I say so out of personal experience. One has only to see how badly injured veterans are treated who have rendered their health and well being in the service of their country, and these are citizens to understand the nature of the nation.

There is an interesting article in the NY Times about an executive who is quitting his position because he cannot stand the vicious attitudes that dominate the country.

This is what dominates the country.
Frank,are you seriously wondering about whether or not a civil war is possible?
When the demonstrations started and the police tried to stop it,those were clear signs of matters getting out of control.
Since when is it usus for the police to beat up demonstraters or to officially be allowed to use pepper spray?
What other signs do you need in order to realize how far the cicil order has become imbalanced?
99/1=is a very clear sign,stating that things need to be changed drastically.
I for a long time believe that another civil war could happen any day in the US.
All it needs is a match to start a fire.
JeJune,before you open your filthy mouth,learn to spell ,start with grade one.
Jan wrote:

I find it quite fascinating, Frank, and rather clarifying on your sense of civility and that you are so appreciative that I am called a stupid piece of shit. The analytical qualities in that qualification miss me entirely, but that seems to be something of a problem with people who are not knowledgeable on America's policies of supporting many of the most repressive governments throughout the world throughout much of its history.

Jan, you regularly speak down to people in your posts…and show a tremendous amount of scorn for people with whom you disagree. You are, I will acknowledge, more subtle than others…but you do it regularly nonetheless.

You were called some names; I did not call you those names. That kind of crap goes on in Internet discussions…and I simply take it to be a part of participation in the process.

I have been called names regularly…and I don’t sit around crying about it.

Suck it up.

Heidi, you wrote:

Frank,your remark towards Jan is inadequate.

What, exactly, are you telling me I was supposed to say? I will consider revising what I have said to Jan if I see merit in your suggestions. Jan, by the way, has not been particularly pleasant toward me for quite some he is not blameless if there is a tiny bit of animosity.
Frank, your acceptance of that type of idiocy as being civil behavior and right in the norm says much more about you than me. I only become concerned about insults from people whose opinions I respect. Otherwise they don't bother me at all It was you I was speaking about, not JP who obviously knows little if anything about what he was defending. I am more sorry for him than offended.
Jan- yeah, I guess a black man running for office in a Klan country isn't fearless at all ... I realize you'll not stop, but your carping is inane, the real world awaits, and it is full of, well, reality, not silly idealism. That said, Finland has given OS a big boost, many of the WordPress coders are good Finnish folk who share their work with the world, even US corporations ... my parting shot to you is, again, thanks for you and your ilk ruining the world by letting Nader siphon Gore's votes and putting Cheney/Rove and a poor trained Simian in control of the War Machine- again, nice going and you are all TO BLAME directly for your naivete and lack of common sense.
Frank, your acceptance of that type of idiocy as being civil behavior and right in the norm says much more about you than me. I only become concerned about insults from people whose opinions I respect. Otherwise they don't bother me at all It was you I was speaking about, not JP who obviously knows little if anything about what he was defending. I am more sorry for him than offended.

Please, Jan…stop the nonsense. I have not accepted that type of insult hurling—nor have I indicated that I think I consider it “civil behavior.” Frankly, I think it is unfortunate some of the name-calling happens, but on the Internet it happens often enough to be considered “the norm.”

When it happens to me, I laugh it off. I don’t cry about it…and I don’t ask that the remarks be monitored or expunged. You ought to give that method of handling it a try.

But if it bothers you too much to simply laugh it off…have a go back at ‘em. I am not going to do that job for you.

Frankly, Jan…although I tried to be pleasant and courteous with you for a long time, you constantly rejected that kind of thing and engaged in taunting for no reason that I’ve ever been able to determine. Quite honestly, I think you do as much of that kind of thing (albeit more subtly) as anyone else. The words “sauce” “goose” and “gander” all come to mind.
Obviously that first paragraph should have been in bold as a quote from Jan.
I don't think there will be a civil war, Frank. I am still hoping for a French Revolution-type uprising, with angry poor and unemployed, otherwise disenfranchised citizens taking to the streets with pitchforks and shovels and breaking down the doors of the over-privileged. My personal fantasy.
There you go, Frank. You seem much more offended than I am when I throw your words back at you.

And surfer, if the USA were so fond of the KKK how come Obama was elected? The rabid idiots in he Tea Party may be noisy but not particularly effective. What's disturbing to me is Obama breaking so many promises. He had a hell of a great mandate when he was elected and he blew it.
Frank, I think most of the strife and political polarization is manufactured by both parties and by the news media (both conservative and liberal) Fact is most people work, live and even marry those who have different political views. The majority get along and just those in Washington to stop putting party politics ahead of country. So much of the so called fighting is not with the american people but with the few hoping to use the divided factions to gain more power.

I no longer consider myself a conservative or liberal, democrat or republican. I am an american first and will work with those regardless of party, faith, or label. My personal observation is the longer someone stays in office the less likely they are to work for the people and worry more about staying in power. So maybe if there is a real clean sweep of congress, the new ones will work for this country again instead of themselves.
All fine points Frank and i wonder this too now.
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Geez, I see a bit of an uncivil war erupting in your blog, Frank! Angry pissing foot doctors? What next?!!
Geez, I see a bit of an uncivil war erupting in your blog, Frank! Angry pissing foot doctors? What next?!!
Ok, guess I had to say that twice.

I'm with Erica. French revolution!
It does seem that the political scene is reaching the vicious level of the pre Civil War era. And we might note : that war did not solve anything really, other than give us practice and a taste for Imperialism.( Slavery was just a talking point, for most people in the Nation), Isn't it a bit exaggerated to talk about "Conservatives" and "Liberals" as if these terms anymore had clear cultrural meaning?! Ron Paul is a" Classic Liberal", and the "Conservatives" are not intested in conserving anything other than their own wealth, regardless of the cost to the Country. Long live Globalism is their creed. There is sure to be war here; it may be saved from an organzied Civil War 2 because, thanks to the triumph of "Diversity", no equivalent to the Nazi Party could be formed.
And another thing: just what is so terrible about a "Failed State" deciding to separate: that is considered OK in a bad marriage; why is it so bad for a "Nation"? The Czechs just demonstrated that it need not be painful. I , though a Yankee, could never understand why it was so wrong for the Sovereign States to decide in 1861 that it just wasn't working out, so let's go our separate ways. Indeed, the "success" of the Union merely cemented Imperialism and Injustice as a legitimate tactic of what has , let's face it, become the New British Empire, which is what we have become. Take that, George Washinigton!
M. Feike: you believe that a shooting civil war is impossible because of "the military" ?! Are you serious? Do you have any idea of how far the military has deteriorated, (except in expensive gizmos)? And believe me, a lot of ex-military will be shooting at them, as well. And you can just count out the "Liberals"; they all believe in "Gun Control".
I don't think formal "secession " is necessary- Simply insisting on the Tenth amendment will do, particularly if Obama repudiates and ignores ( As he is apparently setting himself up to do ) the Supreme Court's coming finding on the lack of constitutionality of "Obamacare"
We are not hungry enough for a Civil War. Look how fat we are!
William S. Burroughs once casually observed that if we were embroiled in a civil war, and the U.S. Military was involved in protracted guerilla warfare with this or that group of right (or left) wing wingnuts, that would constitute “an engraved invitation” for foreign powers to invade. Yes, he made that remark during the Cold War, but who's to say the Russians, or the Chinese, or whomever wouldn't take advantage of such a distraction?

Anyhow, the world doesn't need and hopefully won't ever get another October Revolution, Final Solution or (heaven forbid) Hiroshima. Though I will say that if certain benighted states did seriously decide to break away from the union, I'm not so sure that's an entirely bad thing.
Yes, there will be a Civil War. Neocons have pushed for it through Right wing Radio and that Faux news. They will not like the nation they will have since most welfare and government programs are used by Republicans who tend to yell the loudest against big government. That new Red nation that will have will be go it alone and most of the bums of hate will starve to death. The Blue nation will thrive in peace and wealth.