Hitting 61 this month.
Will probably need to take a serious look at a big change within 90 days.
I'm going to a resume' service I think. Find myself someone who can take out the extraneous over-qualifications and make me sound eager.
This is like trying to race in the Le Mans in reverse gear.
What the hell happened?

Roger - I lost a job when I was fifty one. Got another one (in 1993) - a good one - because I had old friends. Had to move from Baltimore to Jersey - both my daughters were in high school but they survived.

I made it to 62 and when the joint got sold I knew I was through. I was a lucky one.

Of course I had to pay my own health insurance until I turned 65 - $1,152 a month - luckily I had to only pay for a year; the company paid the first two if I would agree to leave and take the money.

And Mitt says we don't need that medicare and S/S.

I'll go with "Old Friends" - good song.

Regards

There was no soup for me at age 52 so I started my own soup store. Now after three years, I'm finally getting somewhere. This story is repeated over and over and over and over. And it is so damned sad. As always, Roger, excellent excellent writing and topic.

61. The one that gets me is the shocked look on the face of the hiring person in a company when he or she meets me for the first time. The look is the interview, and it means "You shouldn't even have come. You're old!"

The other funny situation is when the young human resources person asks me where I plan to be in 5 years. I resist to urge to respond with "vertical".

The only soup I get comes from a mission at age 55 Roger. Unemployed for the last so many years.
Extended homelessness helps not at all. Sleeping in a station wagon is hard on ones soul.

also---dumbing down resumes has become VERY common. Because it often works. Even better? Skip the resume and find someone who knows someone who knows. . .you know the rest.

Frank--I was thinking about your story when I was writing this because it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You made it by making some very hard decisions. And that's an inspiration. Adults do not learn from instructions, they learn from inspiration. And you sir---deliver.

elearnorr---that three year mark, I hear that again and again. Maybe that's the music part for you---you kept on singing all those years!


Gary---that is hilarious. Somebody (who knows somebody cause that's the only way they'd get the job) should do a screenplay about life in HR. It would sell big time.

Yes it is Suzy. But having been blessed with seeing the art you produce for awhile now, I can tell you that I'm a big admirer of your brave soul. That doesn't bring dinner. But it is true.

Roger:

If someone said in an employment ad, "no dark skin we won't be able to see you in the dark," the EEOC would be all over them. So what is the difference here? There is no such thing as being "over-qualified" unless a doctor is applying for a bartending job.

Kristie needs to get a warning letter from EEOC that her ad does not meet EEOC guidelines, and she is discriminating and perhaps if she does not change her "editing" skills SHE SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR A NEW JOB.

Wanted: untrained HR person who does not know anything about Equal Opportunity legislation. Must be self-motivated, not a leader, able bar old people, anyone in a wheel chair, anyone who "looks kinda funny" and of course anyone "over-qualified." Preference given to those with "troll-like" demeanor.

You can temp. Well, I can.

That market's been ok for the last 5 years, that's how long I've been doing it. Either it's falling off lately or people are just giving up on the morons at the local Adecco outlet. In any event I've been collecting unemployment for a month now. When the current job finishes I'll probably apply at other agencies to see if I can hang in there another year and a half.

So I get to work for those youngsters who know far less than I do, make far more, and who I often show how to do their jobs better. Or at all. And they're not all fresh out of school, either. They're just dumb as dogshit (much like the person who wrote the gem of an ad you posted above.) Master's degrees notwithstanding.

Lucky for me, the exhole retired five years ago and the payoff for all those years in hell covers the mortgage (which has lots of divorce expenses rolled into a refi. That's irony, isn't it?) If I can hold out to 65 the SS and a little pension I have might just allow me to afford a medicare supplement. If I pray I pray for his health - my cut ends when he dies. I hear his latest obsession is his health. I hope veganism really does make a person live longer.

The ad you quote so perfectly illustrates the current state of the corporate rat race. If I could just get to feeling a little more confident I'll survive with a fairly decent life, I'd be glad to be out of it.

No worries on getting scammed by the resume' guys.

I'll get a young guy to help me and then pay with cash the way my dad told me to never take money. He was a fedora wearing cigar chomping life long gambler.

Owe a guy $100? Take four $20's. First two are long. Third one is folded. 4th one is long. Count it out to him showing him the top edge of each of the "5" bills, then palm it and hand it over all folded.

He'll wonder where he dropped the other $20 long after you're gone.

Yep. Over qualified.

Yep, I'm 3 weeks from 61 and 2 weeks from 7 months unemployed. And I'm not enjoying either one.

My older sister is going through that now. She's managed to get a part time job at a grocery store- the only full time they hire is managers- and other wise only gets offered what I call scam jobs by insurance companies that want her to sell their product and don't tell her that's what the job is until they've gotten her in the door 3-4 times. No one else will call her. These times really so S___. We'll see how secure my job is in January when the new president of the university takes off ice and authorizes austerity budget cuts.

According to legend the Eskimos would place their elderly on ice floes and give them a shove out to sea. As someone cursed with surviving beyond usefulness I am in dire need of an ice floe but global warming has made these a scarcity. One must take advantage of opportunities so I am organizing to secure rights on ice floes for age disposal purposes but finding great difficulties since the polar braes and penguins have first rights on what is left. Nevertheless since the market is there, I am designing units out of foam plastic that not only van last longer than a natural floe but can be manufactured to specific sizes so that whole crowds of seniors can be accommodated to enjoy their final ride to oblivion in good company. And of course, there will be first class floes for the wealthy and steerage floes for those less well endowed. And other variations for different faiths. The possibilities are infinite.

Have you found in your research why employers would be reluctant to hire the older worker? I realize it might be a hard study to conduct -- after all, employers might not want to admit they were practicing ageism. Is it that they fear the older employee won't take directions from younger employees, will be dissatisfied in doing work they are overqualified for, have health problems, haven't kept up with the latest technology, etc.? I suspect some employers might be more willing to take a second look at the older employee if we could openly discuss and hopefully discredit some of the myths surrounding the older employee. Thanks for writing about this -- definitely an important topic to many of us!

My my you found out about my ex...
You bring out the best in me with posts like this...
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I am 72. Not employable. So, I employed myself. Hell, I don't even want to work in an office and report to someone. I handle as much of my own stuff as possible. Many of my friends are doing that. We are pretty smart so why hire others to do what needs doing. I refuse to be obsolete. So here is what I suggest. Develop your avocation into a part time...someday will... be... job. For me it was gardening. Went to work in a garden center after retiring. Wore chinos and shirt with a company logo. It was pleasant and it paid for the extra stuff.

Admittedly, I am not without means. Years of work and saving paid off. One has to know when it is time to stop wearing mini skirts and short shorts.One also has to know when to know that we don't fit into cubicles and such. Planning for the inevitable is a wise decision.

Capitalism isn't going away anytime soon and anything that benefits it is the de facto law of the land. The problem is only going to get worse, not better, until we decide to out our faith in something real. There's no possible systemic answer with this system.

Depressing but well written. The job world is a cold one.

Well done. I totally get this.

Kate---you and Stim helped remind me yesterday that ageism deserved it's own piece. So that's what this is. Thank you!

The doctor applying for the bartender job ---there is a LOT of that going around. So the word "overqualified" has all sorts of meanings. Meanings like "she wants too much money, will leave soon" etc. When the real problem is that people are not doing what they do best. A whole new conversation totally beyond Kristie's scope is what's needed.

NC--Temping (excuse me "contracting") continuously is something to be proud of in today's world. Welcome to the CONSULTANT club!
Keep telling your story. It will inspire because its REAL!

also---Hang on a second. Gotta go over to the Reader's Pick site. Be right back.

Not only could I see the ageist language, I noticed the horrendous English, too. The whole post was offensive from an editorial point of view. I'll start with the first glaring error: "a Organizational Change Management resource." Guess that youngster never learned that "an" is the article that precedes all vowels or consonants in initials and acronyms that have a vowel sound (i.e. an MG). Also, why is the job title capitalized when it does not precede a proper name?

Finally, it's pretty damned depressing when the only jobs available involve firing people. "Change management" is code for "restructuring."

I agree with eleanorr: Ageism has been around for decades. We just never noticed it because it hasn't affected our generation until now. All things being equal, today's ageists will get theirs in a few decades. The only way to survive this abysmal job market is to start a business. I've come to respect entrepreneurs. R.

At my last job the first two to go, out of about 25 were myself and a woman a few years older, the over 50 women. She'd been there 6 years and I was there 2, they kept women who were making more (with degrees but not in any related field) but had only been there 6 months. There was nothing we could do legally because there was never any mention of age.

The funny part is that they had a lot more problems as they started letting the older workers go. Not just the experience and efficiency that you get over time, but there is a tempering influence when there is a mix of people. Part of it is that management can pull more crap on younger workers which makes the workers adversaries. Older ones can spot the games and will call them on it.

The company only lasted another year, the CEO who thought she was so smart wound up shooting herself in the foot and the whole thing crumbled. I was friends with a lot of the younger employees and they took great delight in passing on all the misery and stupidity when they'd call after I was laid off. I felt bad for them, many of them were nice people and just didn't have the experience to see management maneuvers until they got hit with crap.

If I was going to manipulate or crap on my employees and make inferior product, I'd get rid of those who'd been around the block too. I suppose it kind of works out, it does wonders for the product recall industry and class action suit attorneys do well. Bummer for the customer and employees of all ages but it is what it is.

When enough companies collapse, those on top will start to wise up. Wanting less qualifications and skills means less quality and production, there's no way around reality. When Kristie is eating out of a garbage can because her company went under, she'll figure out that she was scammed. Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.

Walt---you are in a very big group. And there is nothing enjoyable about it. It calls to mind the Stockdale principle. Having two contradictory thoughts in mind at the same time. 1. This sucks. 2. I will get out of this.

phyllis---You bring up an important point. Scam jobs. There are a lot of people making money off the fact that people are out of work. I sent this to 3 friends in the search business who are unique because they have integrity. Have heard back from 2 of them. And will hear back from the third---(he is in St. Louis so he's a little slower.) Point being that the mess we are in makes it hard for everyone connecting people and work. Even the good guys.

Jan---my application is on the way. I am with you! BTW---if anyone wonders what I mean by "adding music"---read Jan's comment. THAT is music!

Elisabeth---the real research is barren because this is a shadow system. It's all under the surface. The reasons are everything you said. But applying social scientific rigor to this is yet to be done. (Anybody dispute that---please PM me! I'd love to be wrong._

Algis---Beautiful. I love it!

Ande---Perfect. Your story is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about.

Cheshyre---I envy your certainty. I wish I was that sure!

fersy---Yes it is.

Sheila---Thank you!

Deb--Thanks for mentioning that English issue. It was hard to even retype that!

Most people from their late 50s and upwards view the loss of a job as terminal. I'm sure that's largely true. Yet you see enough articles about the benefits of older workers. At first I thought companies would clue in but now they seem more like moral encouragement dressed up like analysis.

Damn, you're good. How stupid and shortsighted can people be not to see that? You've sure hit a nerve here. My experience with AOL: culture, religion, race, sexual orientation, youth... No problem. Gender -female- and age -post 45 or 50- Big problem. Still is. Outrageous.

Completely, totally right on.

"she is in charge of telling you “No.”

And she sucks!! PFFFT!! :D

Heck, even the young kids, right out of high school, trying to make some money for college, are having problems trying to get a job. The McJobs, the ones who use to hire them, aren't.

Good times. HISSSSS!!!

Rated!!!

the thing about mao's china was, everybody worked. but the pay wasn't much.

or you can go with the usa model: you work if they want you, and you want the money they are offering.

there are intermediate models, involving unions and labor legislation, but they are 'foreign,' hence evil. americans are perfectly willing that 10% should be unemployed, because unemployed means you are inferior, and no one feels inferior until one day, you are. it's pretty much the same on the african savanna, the wildebeest don't mind the hyenas culling out dinner because it's someone else, until it isn't.

that's why i sometimes call american society 'primitive.' it runs on the law of the jungle.

Abrawang--I don't think they have clued in. "Moral encouragement dressed up as analysis" ---good point!

Sally-- Media and advertising and related sectors, from what I've seen is worse. Which means that the loss of institutional knowledge & even skills for the company comes earlier. So no one knows that the great new direction/campaign/idea was tried 5 years ago and flopped. It is outrageous.


Jan---Thanks. I wish it wasn't all true. But it is.

Tink--The young kids do have it bad too. The common theme being prey on the most vulnerable. Attack Tink!


Al---"Sometimes?" I'd go with most times. That's why Kristie ain't the real problem. It's the jungle law that says she, or whoever wrote that ad, ain't doing anything wrong.

Great post. I was just fired this week after 6 weeks of employment. I was older than the owner and had, I think, too much experience for her. She wanted someone to follow her lead blindly, worshipping her for her couple years of knowledge in a field I had twice the experience. I'm just 40 and experiencing this! I cannot imagine what is yet to come. Congrats on the EP!

Lucinda--When one figures out things like what you just figured out--that sometimes what you really are paid for is to NOT do a good job--things can even get better!

Wow. Just wow.

It makes me feel even better that at age 57 I was actually offered a job! I've gotta share this:

In another lifetime (23 yrs ago) I was in a domestic abuse situation for 12 yrs. It took 6 years but I finally found my way out and have stayed out. My life went where it needed to go and improved, but I always had this "tug" about going back to the battered women's shelter that had taken me in.

Finally, last year I approached them about doing volunteer work. Needless to say, they did their background work on me (nothing to hide there) and for the past year they let me come in and teach some of the pre-teens recovering from the family trauma that such situations create.

Then last week--about a year into my volunteering--they offered me a p/t JOB doing what I'm doing! I was a little apprehensive til 2 friends told me to go for it. Last nite was my first official gig, and I think it went well; the kids didn't seem worse off from my efforts, and the staff is there to help me if I need it.

I also have a sideline recycling business that I started 4 yrs ago in anticipation of having it in place when I retired. I'm doing OK, but I agree w/Ande about being one's own boss and "doing your own thing" instead of trying to get past these HR twits. There's no greater satisfaction than running your own show on your terms; it's better than sex (OK, better than MARRIED sex!).

I think if only 1 good thing came from the '08 meltdown, it's that Americans are becoming more innovative, specifically in the start-up of small businesses. Don't just make lemonade--make lemon meringue PIE! Those ideas are out there if you look for them.

Okay, I shall be pillored (sp?) for going against the grain on the comments here, but I want to respectifully offer some perspective.
Let's not trash Katie too hard here, shall we? Since you've created this convenient straw-woman to stand in for the current crop of twenty somethings, something to direct your (completely justified) anger toward, I feel the need to allow her to defend her (pretend) self). For the record, I was born in that odd demo gap between GenX and Y, so I'm early-middle aged, a perspective that I think is helpful here.
Yup, Katie is an aerobics champ, which is a good thing for her, because unlike previous generations, she knows that no-cost or even affordable health care options will not exist for her as she ages. The new health care law will make coverage available, but a far higher cost than her parent's generation had to pay when they were her age, meaning she'll have to divert a big share of her income away from buying her own home some day (we'll get to that) or pay down her loans (ditto on the getting to that) In fact, the medicare program she is currently paying for out of each check will not exist in 20 years, at least not in its current form. Instead, the government is now borrowing massive sums to pay for said program, money Katie will have to pay back (with interest) while still paying for a system she'll never get the benefits from. The baby boomers who created this problem through years of low-tax mania? Thier benefits are untouchable, of course, because they were 'promised' them.
Now about those loans. Her parents had always told her college was important, and it didn't take a brain surgeon to figure that out. Try being 23 and earn a living wage without one. Katie played it smart and went to a state school. When her parents attended that same campus, their parents made sure they and their fellow boomers had a first-rate college at their disposal at very little cost to them. Some of them were able to take pride in 'working their way through' by taking a job at a restaurant or the weekend shift at a manufacturing plant. (remember those?)
But once those boomers got out on their own, well, they realized things like strong, affordable public universities are funded by these evil things called 'taxes', and they sure didn't like those taxes. So little by little, they whittled down their own tax burden until it was the lowest in modern history and the rest of the industrialized world, and whacked down those public universities (full of pointy-headed elitists!). So sorry, Katie, but if you want a degree, get it on your own dime. Here, we'll lend you that dime, just sign on the dotted line...
Now Katie has a loan balance that's slightly higher than her starting salary. But hey, she's got a job, right? That means she can start thinking about starting a family, buying the type of home her parents had...oops, sorry Katie, but no. Yeah, that loan you got, well, you gotta pay it back. hey, don't blame us, you're the one who signed on the dotted line. Oh, and the house thing? Yeah, we've run up the cost of housing through the roof compared to when we were your age, even after accounting for the crash. Tough luck, kid.
I could go on and on. And I don't want to sound unsympathetic to your situation, one I'll probably find myself in a decade or so.
But let's not trash Katie or her tribe. Getting screwed by society at the tail-end of your working years is wrong. Getting screwed before you even get out of the gate is much, much worse. And completely legal.

One of my favorite TV shows, then to hear one of my favorite songs? And now, a new follower of one of my new favorite writers.

Thanks for bringing this topic to light. Well done.

x

Shank---No pillories here. As I mentioned in the piece, Kristie is not the problem. The system is the problem. And don't worry, I won't tell her you got her name wrong. Thanks for reading!

Christine! Kramer says hey.

oh . . . the tragedy of unintended consequences . . .

a failing social security program, coupled with rising unemployment in the private sector means that workers are hanging onto their jobs past age 65. or getting new ones as they double/triple dip into social security and pension payments.

which also means that recent college grads get turned away for jobs, and have record setting unemployment rates themselves.

the real tragedy here is that college students have been sold a pile of bullshit bill of goods - they are graduating with huge debt, worthless humanities degrees, and can't find jobs.

where are the congressional hearings on why a $40,000 a year education from a "quality" college is actually worthless?

as a retired(64)union heavy equipment mechanic,i find that the trades are one of the few remaining places where age and experience are still valued....
R...

Thanks for the close read Baltimore---I look forward to your post on that.

Steel---That is so true. As far as I can see, the trades are the only exception. Course I've been wrong before. (I envy those who are sure of everything!)

Great piece Roger. At 62 and employed at a small city govt..every time I want to bitch about my job I have to stop..think..and be thankful. I KNOW how thankful I should be in this day and time.
@Shank...I have 3 twenty-something daughters and don't even get me started on the college loan debacle.
Thanks Roger.

Col. Sanders was 70 years old when he founded a little company that is now called KFC. But what did he know? He was an old man.

Good work! I always like to leave comments whenever I see something unusual or impressive. I think we must appreciate those who do something especial. Keep it up, thanks
glasögon

Have you ever noted job ads that say they are looking for someone who is "energetic," "vibrant," "enthusiastic," "dynamic"--and similar words. I often suspect that's a not-so-subtle way of saying, "We want someone under 40, probably under 30."

trilogy---Those who are working are often doing the work of more than one person--so life is not cookies and cream for the employed either.

Steve--Colonel Sanders is a PERFECT example of what I'm talking about. Now THERE is a story!

edward---Thank you. Much appreciated.

Roger--Absolutely. LOTS of job descriptions are written in code. Few are as badly written as the one I used here. But LOTS of them do what you describe.

ALSOKNOWNAS' COMMENT ON THIS POST HAS RECEIVED A READERS’ PICK AWARD

It seems like Kristie is advertising for an Ignorant Young Lackey. Anyone with some experience, confidence and age might refuse to stay late without pay, volunteer for weekend hours or "intern."

Elsamao--You are talking about something that is really important---Stewardship. Taking care of something bigger than you. I know a guy, interviewed him for the book I have coming out at the end of Sept. He was a volunteer at a food pantry. Now we works there. Stewardship is one of the core principles of finding work when there are no jobs---and your story is proof!

Bleue--And what Kristie really doesn't realize is that we are all 2-3 "incidents" (illness/job loss whatever) from that garbage can.

Belle---Ah the INTERN scam! Know it well.

Um lets see, if I am correct my better half is still running a business at 71, he dosen't see a way out. Even though we have a piece of property up in the country, he thinks the country is for old people. Plus to add to the negativity, there are no jobs in the country, a bit of denial to add to the denial of ageism. We were having a "discussion" about this the other night, to which our daughter a bright 20 year old, was not happy that her beloved 71 year old father is still working. There are no answers, especially when your 51 year old mother is back in school for writing, nonetheless. It is real kick in the old preverbial pants, but seriously it is a real problem and it needs more attention, than just channel 256 on Verizon, which focues on many topics older Americans are facing today. This is no joke, and needs National attention, as many of our children start families of their own, they will not be willing to "help" grandma and grandpa with the extras, because they need to pay for their own expenses. It is something that needs contionous research and detailed reports of how not hiring people who are qualified to work will hurt more. The spunky 23 year that is described, will not be able to reach into her reserve to rethink what being 50 is like, when she is prouably in the best shape of her life at 23. I would only wish that people would be fair and reasonable on this one. People need to work and be independent, and have a reasonable amount of money to co-exist with their families and others. Please spread the word.

i read this and thank the gods above that i am retired; i've witnessed she who knows deal with the stigma of ageism and it isn't pretty — she is though.

Plus, as you continue to age, the physical jobs become less and less of an option. (I think 'also' just lapped me going backward...)

A word about "worthless" education. There is NO SUCH THING. Yes, students do need counseling before they take out student loans, and that happens on campuses all around the country, but usually on in the freshman year.

Whether or not you ever get a job in the field in which you earn your degree has NOTHING to do with the fact that you have become and educated person.

Educated people make better decisions, are better parents, are better community volunteers. And the U.S. is the only country on the planet where people of ANY AGE go back to school to retrain or major in a field where they can get a job.

So ignorance is your answer Baltimore? May all your neighbors be high school dropouts.

CG,

You hit the nail on the head. Laid off at 58 now 60, all my resume says is I'm an old guy, It also says I have so much experience that I can do almost anything, but that means OLD. I make a lot of lists, but hardly ever get an opportunity to interview for a job.

I make due with a part time job and some retirement while waiting to hit 62 for a little SS if the republicans don't raise the age to 90 before anyone, me, can collect.

Shocker: I agree with Baltimore, 100%, on this. Go back and read his comment, every word is 100% true. Higher education has become a way for institutions to sell people on degrees--in particular BA's, representing a host of expensive, vague management courses and resulting in vaguely positioned candidates of which there are a massive glut in the system. It's a business, that's all, the university has been fully capitalized, and its baseline activity is very similar to the kind of pitch that used to be limited to latenight infomercials. Ageism as the main problem is a bullshit argument, too--the real workplace is crammed full of boomers at the highest paid positions, and none of them are budging, while unemployment amongst the young is staggering. One more split in the working class.

Not rated.

And the soup nazi turned out to be a sympathetic guy on Seinfeld. Elaine was a bitch for ruining his business.

I'm 70. I was washing dishes in a small restaurant the other day at a fundraiser for our volunteer Literacy group (we prepare adults for GED testing among various programs). The restaurant owner complimented me on my work and I half-seriously asked him if he ever needed a dish washer for hire. He said yes, and I think was half-serious. I'm still half serious about it. Hard times, my friend. Good post.

Momsaconic—Appreciate your story. Thanks!

Thanks Chuck— Having someone you love go through it is even worse!

Jeff—Tell me about it. I recently had a job with a start up where I had to throw around 50-100 pound bags of the product. Hard to believe I sucked. Why when I was 25. . . . .

Thanks Kate—I didn’t respond to that argument because I didn’t understand what it had to do with this piece. . .(but I like your response anyway!)

Grandpa—Hang in there my friend. There are a lot of us---which is why this piece drew so much traffic (and made it hard to keep my self imposed rule of responding to every comment)

Boko—I get that you’re angry. And thanks for coming back three times to make sure everyone knew. I appreciate the multiple views. But I’m not really sure what you’re angry about—as the piece wasn’t about higher education. It was about ageism.
And, in case I wasn’t clear, the point (and the research) was that more people perceive ageism to be a barrier to employment then ever before. That’s all.
Not sure what the point is in arguing about someone’s perception. If yours is different, God bless you.
As I said, ageism is a systemic problem. So its got lots of angles. Even denial. And it certainly isn’t the only barrier to employment. Just like being master of your domain, (or arguing about nothing) isn’t the only way to have fun. Gotta run. gymnastics is on!

Matt---These are hard times. Which really cuts to the real point here. Thanks Matt.

At the company where I work, I am sometimes in charge of hiring, and though we would never say it to any prospective employee, or indeed admit to it aloud, we look for very young people. With no experience, their pay is less, they connect well with our students so we get fewer complaints (particularly if they are pretty women), and they have fewer "entanglements". My boss will never hire anyone who mentions their children in an interview. Children mean time away from work. She does not hire people with children, and a current employee having a child will get a lot of grief and will likely see more disciplinary action if their numbers fall. And yes, she has children and is frequently out running errands for their school or sports teams. Of course, it would be hard to prove any of this. I think those saying that older people would be less likely to work 60 salaried hours a week (read, 20 hours of unpaid overtime) are spot on. They may need time away from work. In the company view, it's better to get a 24-year-old who will be compliant, and not do anything to upset the students.

chicago - If there are more people right now who perceive so called "ageism" as a problem (and I'm not convinced there are, and I'm not convinced that's a real thing), then it's because there are more older workers unemployed right now than there have been in many decades. There are very real reasons for that and they have nothing to do with identitarian politics or older unemployed people carrying a chip on their shoulder or the psychology of hiring etc.

Companies prefer to hire younger workers during a downturn, or in the immediate aftermath of one, because they're cheaper, are used to fewer benefits, and don't come in with as much institutional experience--they're less likely to complain, at least about things that matter (i.e. might cost serious money to fix). Also, companies are trying to raise productivity right now with reduced staffs to start to make up for the huge losses many suffered during the slump. (No use quoting earnings statistics, since nobody is getting paid on their business right now. It's only recently that money has even started coming in the door once again for a lot of medium and even big firms, if they're lucky.) Younger workers tend to work longer hours and on weekends with fewer complaints or missed days compared to older folks with more personal responsibilities. In other words, they want to work people like dogs and older, more experienced employees don't make very good dogs...

Expect another wave of downsizing to hit the middle administrative layers in a lot of industries, too. There usually is a bout of mid-level downsizing on the tail end of a crisis...

And anger, as well as imagined grudges against the young, are also matters of perception. I'm sick of all the PC crap. It's not serious, and it doesn't make the real economic problems behind these seemingly mysterious, psychologized phenomena magically disappear.

And by the way the adjusted Bureau of Labor unemployment stats for June 2012 hover between 20 and 26% for 16 to 19 year olds, 13.7% for 20 to 24 year olds, the highest by age categorization, by far. Over 55 is 6.2%. Even with long term unemployed not being counted (and there is bound to be a much higher number there for the young end of the spectrum), the real picture is quite clear.

...and I meant to say, parenthetically, there is bound to be a much higher number of uncounted long term unemployed among OLDER workers, higher than in many decades.

Bokko---I'm honored that this inspired you to write 6 comments!

librarience-- I've seen a lot of the same things. I've probably hired over 1,000 people across the course of my career. Right now I have two contracts where I am hiring. And the differences in the attitude towards folks of 40 is just huge. I'd even call it profound. You bring of the compliancy of youth. Good point. And the notion of what's not talked about.

Meanwhile, (as a related side note) a 55 year old poet friend just wrote this moment from Florida where she is getting ready to go to sleep in the storage locker where she will spend the night---because police are clearing the street of homeless in anticipation of the republican convention.

Thanks so much for caring and seeing the problem.

CG, another very strong presentation of where our once vital, robust culture in somewhere no one wants to truly visit. I have nothing against the school/factory -- you know, the 'OMG/Amaaaazing' network -- producing people like your Kristie. Right out of "Blade runner." We are at the mercy of a quaking corporate structure that has the vision of butterfly and about as deep. We built this creature. It will pass. Many are already making a go of it as self-employed workers, the only one really worth risking your career for -- unless you find yourself at one of the really good companies out there.
The cool thing is that we will survive, possibly, thrive. When we're down to it, it makes perfect sense. With the web world robust and growing, we have options. Life. Failure is on the job training. Pretty honest, once you unwind your ego, head and other parts from the barb wire of the old paradigm ....
BTW, I have been doing HR Transitional management, helping others retool careers, for these past several years. ( Will assist any of my OS people in resumes. letters, etc.)
R>>>>>>

When jobs are scarce and competition for them fierce, employers become uninhibited about letting their contempt for employees show. Suddenly gone are all the pretenses of respect. I think it was there all along, just kept under wraps when employers are the needy ones, desperate for capable, skilled, experienced empoyees. When I passed 60, my applications for advertised professional positions in my field--ones I was very well-qualified for--did not even get even the courtesy of an acknowledgement, let alone an interview. I was naive enough to be shocked. I was finally hired by someone I'd worked with in 1989-91, who remembered my good work back then. An important topic, affecting more and more peoople ChiGuy. I also know lots of people around 50-55 now underemployed and realizing they won't be able to retire at 65 (or perhaps ever) because they can't build up their retirement savings during what were supposed to be their prime earning years. [r][

Roger, I bristle when I hear colleagues talk about another colleague, or candidate for a job search as "young with new ideas", or "young and energetic", or "young, not some complacent, cynical older person."
Believe me, I have heard 60 something colleague say things like that.
It is highly offensive, so I always call them on it....ad always will.

CG - there is another category in this age group: women like me, who have been "stay-at-home" housewives for over twenty years, who are looking for work now because their spouses can't bring in the wages they once did.

I just checked my "career" folder, and I have now received over 400 rejection emails, and most of the time I don't even get a rejection letter. I am thinking of taking MBA off my resume.

In addition, I am carrying the debt for my daughter in college.

I feel that being on the tail end of the baby boom might be the worst spot of all. As others have said, the boomers may use up government resources, and the college kids have enormous debt. I am between them.

I have decided to teach and work in non-profits, fields in which there is a great deal of need. I'm looking at trends of "need" as well, which guides my decision making. Expertise such as many of your older commenters here have is desperately needed in so many fields.

I feel that even if there is no "job", there is always "work" to be done.

Inthisdeepcalm---"We built this creature. It will pass." That sums it up perfectly. You got it. And I hope people notice what you are doing to help with the problem. I know that business well. If you want to send me a PM with your contact info, I'd be happy to keep on the lookout for referrals.

Donegal---Thanks for that comment and the rating. Last night, for the first time in the 4 years I've been doing this, I had someone make a point to tell me that the were NOT rating me. No soup for me! But you made up for it.

Your point about the contempt being there all along and it just showing because of the hard times for most of us---I'd personally agree.

Emily--Great points. In addition to taking the MBA off the resume, another thing that a lot of people do is only go back 10 or less years.

And the debt many of us carry in situations like kids in college is huge. Being in the middle means being squeezed.

But by targeting non-profits, you are putting something out there other than talk. You're taking care of something larger than yourself.
Thanks for that comment. Really. Thanks for that comment!

Gary--Keep calling them on it! In your field it is especially offensive!

A very interesting thread on the topic, Roger, thank you for giving it a forum. Much has been said, but what I thought I'd add is that ageism and unemployment isn't affecting only our generation any more. Many young,qualified graduates seem to be facing similar situations as older people are, and whereas we had, at one point in our lives, some, job security and tenured positions, they do not. Particularly in universities tenure track positions are no longer there, having relegated their place to contract assignmets, term positions, etc. which save the institutions from paying health, retirement benefits, and more. It all looks rather dismal for my son and my daughter although they are still pursuing post graduate studies, but when that is over, I'm really wondering if they'll get something commensurate with their qualifications or not. I was one of the luckier ones of my generation who could retire from the same career and with the help of my savings and my pension I can get by comfortably.
Rated♥

I was a waitress in family restaurants till I was 61. (31 yrs) I also have a business with my husband maintaining 5 credit unions, in the evening. Retirement was in place, bills organized etc. Life was good. My restaurant was basically 'taken over' by another race, and by taken over, I mean even English wasn't spoken. Due to the stress of this situation and the fact the lady boss & I did not click, my hrs got cut severely..I mean from 38 hrs to 12 per week. I asked how I could earn them back, as I was a trainer and certified in sanitation, she said there was no way. I faked a verbal fight with her, made fun of her(which seriously is not my nature), and got fired. By being fired gave me $250 per week unemployment. I wasn't going to get pushed put withNOTHING! The credit union business was going terric and we were making more money than we had a right to..haha! They were bought out in merger and our contract pay got cut by 60 %.(Making a long story short.) Unemployment ran out after 2 yrs, I am now 64 and no one will hire me for anything.I was excited about a part time nutrition aide position at the local hospital. The phone interview was fabulous, went so well. She said I would be called the following week for face to face interview. My experience was serving, but also manager of a health food store, and service in a senior home many yrs before. No call.
I loved your article because it tells it like it is. I guess it is fortunate that wealth hasn't been a huge priority for me. How will old age go? Who knows?
Congrads on EP!

fusun--You add an important point. Ageism means prejudice based on age. It doesn't have to mean old age.

Cindy--Your story really shows WHY the lock step "rules for getting job/writing resumes/interviewing tips" where everyone is being told to do the same thing is simply a thing of the past. Your story (like every other individuals) is unique! Following a recipe to find work just doesn't work. Instead, thinking about new ways to connect with work--which and a lot of people on this thread have done--is the real key to that all important question you pose: "What's next."

This has never been so true. I am 54 yrs old and do to "downsizing", I lost my job nearly 4 years ago. I've had a few interviews but nothing has come of them; I've given up.

Over the past 8 years my husband has been unemployeed more than he has worked. He is 55 yrs old. He worked for two Mom and Pop welding shops before now and, I guess because of the economy, the Boss(s) couldn't pay him and used the money to keep the doors open. My husband is loyal..sometimes to a fault. If the boss says he'll pay then my husband continues to work. Both busnesses have closed.

It was touch and go for over a year but my Husband is working, again.
I'm not faulting employers, per se, but they see his grey hair and just give him(us) lip service as to "I'll know by the end of the week who will get the job". Employers can be as selective as they want because so many people are deparately looking for a job. Any job. I couldn't even get a job at the local fast food places.

A---You hit on so many important points in your story.

1. The "job search" charade (not DOING a job. Getting one). They are two different things with almost no relationship to each other----does not value traits like loyalty. So the search question then has to become---OK, where is there a need for loyalty? It's hard to think that way because none of us ever have.

2. We could all always rely on "fast food" jobs if things got really bad. Now we can't. Kristie is in charge of those searches.

3. Everybody's situation is different. So generic advice about interviews and resumes has limited use.

Giving up is VERY understandable.

But I hope you don't.

The eww factor of ageism (Old people are lame and smell funny) is completely unconscious to the perpetrators... blinded by the glorious immediacy of youth they cannot see nor hear. I never depended upon the corporate culture, so it comes as no surprise to me that despite thirty years of solid experience their is no way I can even get anyone to read my resume... I now consult with small businesses where communication is direct without the filters of HR.

jmac---in most cases (not all) if its got the filters of HR, its not even communication!

It is a sad day when age and experience are considered to be a liability in the workplace. The young people of Generation Y, who are also known as the "millenials," are in a sad situation as well.
Paul Haider, Chicago

Paul---Yes Ageism doesn't have to mean old. Among the younger generations--and the work of Neil Howe breaks down each generation--are also discriminated against based on age.