In my more desperate moments I like to imagine that Ronald Reagan is still in the White House, and that he is contemplating the menace posed by Iran’s development of nuclear weapons and nuke-bearing missiles. You may recall that Iran released the U.S. embassy hostages in 1981 at virtually the same moment that Reagan lugged his jar of jelly beans into the Oval Office. The mullahs had sized up this man Reagan and had properly concluded that he wasn’t going to take any shit from them, the kind they had served up with impunity to Jimmy Carter.
Let’s give Barack Obama the benefit of the doubt and assume that he doesn’t secretly want the Iranians to blow Bebe Netanyahu and the rest of the Israelis into radioactive dust. Let’s assume, instead, that Obama, with his reliance on diplomatic negotiations and economic sanctions, is simply gutless. When the first mushroom cloud rises over Tel Aviv, the world can confidently expect that Obama will react with solemn indignation and appoint a committee to study what happened.
The perennial effort to wipe out the Jews has been going on for all the thousands of years since this persecuted minority first organized itself at some sort of town hall meeting in the Middle Eastern desert. Because the extermination effort has been pursued with such singleminded intensity, one is tempted to attribute it, somehow, to a single intelligence. But how can that be, unless one believes in Satan?
The Jews have been everybody’s favorite scapegoat. The Egyptians tried their hand at wiping them out under the pharoahs. The Iranians -- that’s right -- had a go at it under Haman. Later there were the Spanish inquisitors, the Tsarist pogroms. And let’s not forget Hitler, whose extermination program was the most ambitious and successful of all. He had several years of unfettered opportunity to carry it out, and he was backed by that famous German efficiency.
I’d rather not speculate why the Jews have always been the target of murderous bigots. Some people think it is because, by and large, they succeed in their earthly endeavors, thus arousing the envy of the majority in the communities where they dwell. Some think it is because they revel in their differentness and stubbornly adhere to their separate identity -- although that hardly seems to have been the case in pre-war Germany.
Never mind why. There is always someone carrying on the tradition, and today it is the Iranians, whose vile mouthpiece, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, keeps vowing to wipe Israel "off the map". He hopes to resume Hitler’s mission -- although, curiously, he denies that Hitler pursued any such mission. Why should he be hesitant about admitting that there was a Holocaust when he wants to pull one off himself?
Some experts estimate that Hitler reduced the world’s Jewish population from 17 million when the war began to 11 million when it ended. If he had been the peacenik that Ahmadinejad seems to think he was, the Jewish population today might be in the neighborhood of 20 million. Instead, it is estimated at 13 million, so Hitler still can claim a net plus -- or a minus if you are looking at things from the Jewish side.
Hitler did not have today’s technology -- read nuclear weapons -- to help him carry out his task, nor was there such a high concentration of Jews in his day as one finds today in Israel. The Jewish state, which is a little less than the size and population of New Jersey -- minus Snooki -- has the largest Jewish population of any nation in the world, some 5.7 million. The only other nation that comes close is the United States, with 5.3 million. France ranks a distant third with a little less than a half-million.
Perhaps a half-dozen well-placed atomic bombs of Nagasaki size -- the kind of starter bomb one might expect a nuclear nation to develop initially -- would either incinerate outright, or condemn to death by radioactive poisoning, or simply ruin forever the lives of more than 40 percent of the Jews left in the world. Quite a haul for just a few minutes' work.
Let’s finesse the fact that millions of Muslims and Christians in and near Israel also would perish. That, as Timothy McVeigh might put it, has to be accepted as collateral damage in pursuit of a just cause.
Hitler had to acknowledge that he couldn’t kill them all, but the effort was under way before he came on the scene, and thanks to his spiritual heir, Ahmadinejad, it continues. Someday history’s serial killers may achieve their genocidal goal. It is a work in progress.
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Comments
Lezlie
1) "The mullahs had sized up this man Reagan and had properly concluded that he wasn’t going to take any shit from them, the kind they had served up with impunity to Jimmy Carter."
Gee, Arthur, if you're retired now, you must have been old enough to remember that Reagan and the Ayatollah Khomeini made a deal to keep the embassy hostages locked up until Reagan took office, which was called "the October Surprise." And you must have heard of the "Iran-Contra Scandal," right? The one with Oliver North and the weapons sales, and the cake shaped like a key?
2) Ahmadinejad has never vowed to wipe Israel off the map. The Washington Post debunked this Israeli claim a couple of years ago, and even the Israeli government has admitted the deception. It's a fake translation taken out of context and used for political agitation against the Teheran government. (Instead, Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini in calling for regime change in Israel, which we are constantly demanding for Iran.) Repeating this lie doesn't make it true.
3) Iran is not developing nuclear weapons and halted its program in 2003, after Saddam Hussein was deposed, since he was the only reason they were ever working on them in the first place. Don't take my word for it - this is the conclusion of all the US intelligence agencies in an official report from 2007. This got heavy coverage back then, e.g. in the New York Times. In his memoirs, George W. Bush himself complained that the public release of this report stopped him from waging war on Iran.
Arthur, I see no need to provide you with the corresponding links, because I believe you can find these stories yourself. If you have trouble with that, though, please drop me a line and I'll provide them to you.
The same goes to the other commentators, e.g.: "Anyone who wants to wipe an entire country off the face of the earth scares the crap out of me."
I agree. That's why Netanyahu scares the crap out of me, since that what he's threatening to do with Iran using the lies discussed above.
Great minds move in the same channels. Before I saw your comment I decided to remove my flip response to Alan's comment.
Starting again:
Alan, If Ahmadinejad doesn't want to wipe Israel off the map, then I think he should make an earnest, all-out attempt to persuade the world, and especially Israel, that he doesn't have any such intention. At the moment, just about everybody thinks that he does, and this misconception could lead to WWIII.
He should get up and proclaim that he recognizes the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state, and will not bombard the Israelis with nuclear weapons, or even firecrackers. Israel and Iran will always co-exist in peace. I will be delighted to hear this, but for now I am waiting.
He also should clean up his act where it comes to the Holocaust. It didn't help his cred when he sponsored a forum of experts, including the American Nazi David Duke, to explain to the world how the Holocaust didn't happen. The Holocaust is the best-documented event in the history of the world. It happened. Would you agree?
Finally, you ought to rush to the White House immediately with your proof that Iran does not have a nuclear-weapons program. President Obama is proceeding on the assumption that it does. Even though his response is limited to economic sanctions, he is acting on his assumption. You must do what you can to stop this unwarranted economic punishment of Iran, if that is what it is.
"If Ahmadinejad doesn't want to wipe Israel off the map, then I think he should make an earnest, all-out attempt to persuade the world, and especially Israel, that he doesn't have any such intention."
I agree this would be a wonderful gesture, although it doesn't really surprise me that this does not happen considering how Netanyahu is aiming daily threats at Iran, and unlike Ahmadinejad (who is not even commander-in-chief of the Iranian military), Netanyahu has nuclear cruise missiles and German submarines from which to launch them. Nor do I know how essentially crumbling under massive outside pressure would work out in Iranian domestic politics (if the situation were reversed, it wouldn't play well in America either, that's for sure). There's obviously no easy answer, no quick fix to the standoff, but a deescalation strategy - which would probably have to start in Tel Aviv - would appear to be a step in the right direction if we don't want a lot of people to get hurt. Don't people study this sort of conflict resolution at college?
"He should get up and proclaim that he recognizes the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state, and will not bombard the Israelis with nuclear weapons, or even firecrackers."
Ditto what I wrote above. Yes, I know it won't happen, but if Netanyahu is really the grownup in the room, as he wants us to believe, he ought to prove it by halting the public threats. Bear in mind that the Israelis have already been committing sabotage and open assassination on Iranian territory, so I suspect the Iranians aren't feeling very apologetic just now.
"He also should clean up his act where it comes to the Holocaust."
Absolutely! We are in total agreement here, and that Holocaust denial conference he organized six years ago was a disgrace. It was also a heap of crap and an insult to intelligent people everywhere. Maybe we should all treat it as the rubbish it was and move on? I'd hate to see thousands of people killed over an idiotic conference. It really isn't worth it.
"You must do what you can to stop this unwarranted economic punishment of Iran."
My options are limited. I decided when the "Global War on Terror" began in 2001 that one thing I can do is inform myself and talk back when I see false statements being put out. I'm doing that here.
As I understand it, the real reason for the Iranian threat (i.e. the threat TO Iran) is that Israel, Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States, plus the US and Britain all want to share dominance over this sensitive and oil-rich region, and Iran isn't playing by their rules. The US and Britain would also like to regain their oil drilling rights, which they lost in the Islamic Revolution. Thus everyone wants to nuke them and eliminate a strategic rival before it gets too big for its britches. In other words, it's politics and has little or nothing to do with whether some people are Jewish or not. "Human rights" aren't an issue, since both Israel and Saudi Arabia are some of the most egregious human rights violators in the region and nobody cares.
Obviously Israel and the US will have their Iran war if they want it, no matter what anybody says. The latest I've been hearing is that the Israelis might start the bombing as early as this month so as to get the US sucked into it before the election (particularly if Netanyahu thinks Romney can't win, since the candidate gave him a green light to nuke Iran, and he's doubtful about Obama's enthusiasm for more mass death). I don't want that blood on my hands, but our best and brightest in Tel Aviv and Washington aren't giving me a choice.
Now, does President Obama have some secret source of information about a genuine Iranian threat? Perhaps, but after watching Colin Powell's magic show before the Security Council in 2003, I have become skeptical of such claims, particularly when there are more plausible reasons for an attack on Iran. Ockham's razor, you know.
Full disclosure: I regard the Islamic Republic of Iran as an oppressive, vicious, bigoted, totalitarian system, which all the exiled Iranians I know despise, and hope that it will be altered some time soon, preferably by the people themselves, who will have to live with the results.
By the way, Obama has now approved funding for regime change in Syria in an obvious move to destabilize Iran through the back door. So Ahmadinejad certainly should proclaim his love of peace, but if I were him I'd be more worried about staying alive until November.
You lost me there, Arthur.
Again by accusing a virtually powerless, under Mullah's, President, much like your own though probably more like his predecessor, of wanting to annihilate an enemy ~ dollar signs in Cheney's eyes ~ I'm wondering where this god-bothering, blathering nonsense will get you & people who think like you ... but I forget ...
You are the citizen of the most rapacious war-machine we've seen.
As far as the war machine is concerned, have you ever speculated about where your posterior would be right now if the U.S. hadn't fought the war in the Pacific?
( Why would you have SAID that, I wonder ... )
Re. Ahmadinejad, I have no idea what's in the mind of his leaders.
I hope they're good Muslims. Do you know different ?
You need to read comments more carefully. I stated he is powerless without his Mullah's blessing.
As a politician he can say what he likes, as can yours, & do, without spiritual guidance.
Re. the SW Pacific & WW2 ~ don't you, or any of your friends DARE for one frigging MINUTE you were here for us.
You were here to protect your Philippines Base.
The Japanese had NO interest in Australia beyond our re-fuelling capacity for US ships.
& now you're back, because of China.
A base in Darwin, another in Perth, & we're just "friends," right ?
I do recall -- it was a plan between Reagan and Iran to spite and humiliate Carter, by refusing cooperation until Reagan was elected and took office.
That's different.
"I’d rather not speculate why the Jews have always been the target of murderous bigots."
(Why I am wading in, I'm not sure, but...)
I cannot say I know that answer, certainly, and there have been many "reasons" given in history that are filled with hideousness and cruelty, but I was taught that the persecution of Jews was/is a succession of heinous acts against the belief that the Jewish people are God's chosen people ~ their beliefs made them uncontrollable by other, Earthly, rulers.
""And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you." (Genesis 17:7)"
Most Jewish texts do not state that "God chose the Jews" by itself. Rather, this is usually linked with a mission or purpose, such as proclaiming God's message among all the nations, , even though Jews cannot become "unchosen" if they shirk their mission. This implies a special duty, which evolves from the belief that Jews have been pledged by the covenant which God concluded with the biblical patriarch Abraham, their ancestor, and again with the entire Jewish nation at Mount Sinai. In this view, Jews are charged with living a holy life as God's priest-people.
~ wikipedia, under Rabbinic Jewish views of chosenness.
As far as anyone planning on wiping out the Jews entirely, then take me out as collateral damage with them: total strangers to me, my Jewish friends, and my Jewish family members too.
Israel has 200+ nukes but what the hey, they don't have to sign any non-proliferation treaty (like Iran) just cuz ... cuz.... cuz????
I just read an article by Haim Baram, an Israeli writer and broadcaster. He had this to say which I found compelling:
"The Israeli Prime-Minister is regarded here, almost universally, as a Republican hack, with vested interests in the victory of the hard-core right-wingers in the US. Actually, he has built his entire career as an Israeli politician on the premise, that White House policies, which do not fully concur with the interest of Israel’s right-wing government, can be subverted and finally even eradicated by the US congress, supposedly under the influence of the pro-Likud lobby in Washington. There is an element of conceit here that has turned Netanyahu into the scourge of American liberals, a foe of the Democrats and a staunch ally of the worst war-mongers and neo-liberals in the American political arena. The South-American leftist, arguably forming a very potent ideological, social and political powerbase in Latin-America, brand official Israel as an enemy, and not without cause. Millions in Brazil, Argentina and the entire spectrum of opinion in Central America will castigate Israel as an aggressor if the Netanyahu regime attack Iran. But even their reaction will be dwarfed but the gathering storm in the Moslem world. The wealthy and conservative sector of the US Jewry and their allies in Alabama and Texas are unlikely to shield the Israelis from the popular international wrath."
"The left in Israel, our allies the Arab citizens and the entire peace camp here need the world to save the region from the planned, senseless attack on Iran which could well deteriorate into a future nuclear war. As we cannot rely on our cabinet ministers, some of them baying for blood, we must call upon governments, NGOs and political movements worldwide to help us to prevent the Netanyahu lunacy before the PM unleashes his fury on the denizens of the Middle-East, including us, the Israelis."
end of quote
I know a lot about borderline personalities! I grew up with one monitoring my life and a borderline personality gets hysterical and is never wrong. Has profound difficulty taking in another's reality. I see the Israeli government AS A BORDERLINE PERSONALITY! Impossible to appease, paranoid and projecting its own bloodlust outward. The disorder prevents real communication and negotiation.
How do you explain the slaughter in Gaza just as Obama was being elected? And Obama kept his mouth shut on that nightmare as did Hillary. I guess humanitarian intervention is never used if a toxic codependent country would be inconvenienced, the hell with decency and international law.
Obama still gives over $3 billion a year for military aid to Israel every year. Israelis have universal health care. Our health care drives us Americans to quick bankruptcy. Would be nice if that money went to help Americans with jobs and health care and social programs.
I don't see Obama wimping out for Israel's present administration's bloodlust. Having that interpretation made makes me despair even more of the possiblity of a WWIII. And Romney promises to let Netanyahu determine foreign policy overtly instead of just covertly, even though everyone knows that is what they are doing.
I see both candidates on their knees along with the rest of Congress, both sides of the aisle, to a dangerous Israel. The mess in the Middle East? Israel got to thumb its nose at any UN attempts over these years to obey international law. US veto protected the world from justice and sanity apparently. Snatched cronyism from the jaws of justice, sadly.
What say you about the settlement situation? Do you think that is just?
Syria war drumbeat is horrifying. US/NATO/Israel all enabling Al Qaeda now with weaponry and support to terrrorize Syrian people, even the so-called former rebels are being terrorized by TERRORISTS. The real freedom fighters are now either displaced, dead or fighting with Assad to try to prevent Syria from becoming the next Iraq or Libya. But you won't hear that on mainstream media because propaganda playbook and WMDs-fear-mongering and ramp up the hysteria is the way this movie goes, and we've seen it before and before and before and IT SUCKS!!!
All Alan said about the October surprise and Iran contra. I think you have some history homework to catch up on Arthur. Or you may be called out for sounding "borderline!"
best, libby
You have set me to wondering what the Jewish people were chosen for. Extermination?
My father fought in the Pacific and he would acknowledge them and be grateful for all they gave. Peace. They fought that we may know peace. Is it so easy to forget as time goes on?
You give me pause. I have nothing at all against our Australian allies in WWII. If anything, I revere them, as I do everyone who fought on our side. I guess I am just taking exception to Kim's approach to this issue.
Alan has pretty much covered the falsehoods in this post.
I will add:
Ahmadinejad didn't deny the Holocaust happened, he said the Palestinians didn't do it, so they shouldn't be punished for it. Norman Finkelstein has written on the Holocaust Industry and Israel's use of it to justify its crimes. Others have written about Ben Gurien and other early Zionists working with the Nazi's to achieve their goal of creating a Homeland in Palestine. Quit blaming Iran for the Holocaust.
Why must it be Iran to renounce violence. What about the Israelis. They are the ones using it. Iran has not been assassinating Israeli scientists, infecting their computers with viruses, imposing economic sanctions, or threatening massive military force against the population on a daily basis. Will Israel get rid of its Nukes or at least join the non-proliferation treaty so they don't give nukes to other rogue nations like they did to apartheid era South Africa.
What makes people think Iran would use a nuke against Israel. Iran has existed far longer than Israel and they have not attacked another country that I can recall. They have no death wish, which is what it would amount to if they used nukes on Israel. They know this and have no desire for that outcome. To say other wise is ethnocentric blabber. A nuke would provide Iran some assurance that Israel will not use one against them. If Saddam actually had WMD, perhaps we wouldn't have been so quick to attack, but we knew all along he did not.
Which Israel is Iran or the Palestinians supposed to recognize. The 1948 borders. The 1967 borders. The borders of today. Or the ever expanding borders of the future as Israel continues its illegal expansion and occupation that has resulted in a shrinking Palestine that is now 17% of what it was before the Zionists came.
It is people like L in the Southeast who scare the crap out of me with their ignorance that leads to support of massive atrocities. Its this attitude that led to support for Iraq and Afghanistan and silence on our crimes in Yemen, Pakistan, Somalia and on and on.
You are not worthy of a discussion, let alone an argument.
what, did you just write this blog to flex the old victim stance? right now the government of Israel is one of the bully boys, or haven't you noticed yet? I don't blame the Jewish people for that. I blame the war mongers and the ostriches, the same as I do in the US.
meanwhile US and Israel becoming more and more rightwing all the time and enabling rightwing fundamentalism. Who are we in bed with as the Syrian war has already been launched by proxy but not really ... since we are in it with Nato and Israel up to our eyeballs in war crimes, with weapons and CIA etc. In Syria, we are in bed with Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Not bastions of democracy for sure either, my friend. Wouldn't want to be a woman there, either.
I think international law matters, Arthur. Geneva Conventions. Sovereign boundaries. Not bullying imperialism and violent opportunism. No diplomacy on the table unless coded bull-shit diplomacy that exploits concepts like R2P from responsibility to protect to as Pepe Escobar says "right to plunder".
I thought Obama and his drones had hit a new low. Obama having Al Qaeda do the terrorizing of the civilian population to oust Assad, that can't get any more craven. We are allied with the terrorists from Iraq and Afghanistan, like we were in Libya, even though the very same ones killed and maimed our troops, but what the hey, to the amoral, the ends always justifies the means.
You betcha. I do feel sorry for Iran. I do feel sorry for Syria. I feel sorry for all those millions of people who are trying to live their lives and along comes the cartel of international bullies to use shock and awe to economically rape and militarily terrorize and decimate their countries. "Humanitarian interventions" and "helping the status of women" what bullshit. Iraq and Afghanistan are now two of the top 5 most corrupt countries in the world. They call it "nation UN-building!!!" And the dominos continue to fall from amorality and evil.
The Turkish vessels bringing aid to the Gazans and how some of those activists were GUNNED DOWN when that was not necessary at all. WTF???? Even an American citizen, but no biggie since it was Israel and God forbid the US might assert a little "tough love" against an ally that has caused so much chaos and mayhem in the Middle East. Would help everyone including Israel if Obama had been a statesperson and not a WIMP! And Hillary, what a tool she turned out to be. The settlement building is "unhelpful." But then she is the biggest war-monger going with Syria and Iran. It is truly disgusting.
best, libby
I have zeroed in on this statement in your long comment, because it seems the weakest: "If Saddam actually had WMD, perhaps we wouldn't have been so quick to attack, but we knew all along he didn't."
This seems logically impossible. How could we know that he didn't without going in there? And once we did go in, if we were inclined to lie, we could have planted some weapons and made a fuss about them. Instead, we frankly stated that we found none.
There is no way you can prove a lie here, and if you can't prove it you shouldn't say it, even though I know that is the Progressive way.
"The "Downing Street memo" (occasionally DSM, or the "Downing Street Minutes"), sometimes described by critics of the Iraq War as the "smoking gun memo", is the note of a secret 23 July 2002, meeting of senior British Labour government, defence and intelligence figures discussing the build-up to the war, which included direct reference to classified United States policy of the time. The name refers to 10 Downing Street, the residence of the British prime minister."
"The memo recorded the head of the Secret Intelligence Service (MI6) as expressing the view following his recent visit to Washington that "[George W.] Bush wanted to remove Saddam Hussein, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy." It also quoted Foreign Secretary Jack Straw as saying that it was clear that Bush had "made up his mind" to take military action but that "the case was thin", and the Attorney-General Lord Goldsmith as warning that justifying the invasion on legal grounds would be difficult. However, the meeting took place several months before the adoption of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441, the resolution eventually used as the legal basis for the invasion of Iraq."
WTF?????
Arthur, you debate like a first grader. I am signing off from this blog.
I am going to pass on any further discussion of Iraq. We all know that we went in on a false premise.
Just getting back to Israel for a moment: Really, Israel just wants to be left alone. They were given Palestine by the Brits, who had the right to dispose of it as they wished. This was done with the thunderous support of all the nations who ran the world in those days. Israel didn't steal it, and they deserved a safe homeland after what happened in Europe. They would have preferred to live in peace with everyone else in the region. But their security has been repeatedly threatened, and they have been warred against periodically. The Holocaust is still a fresh memory, and the Jews adopted the slogan "Never again," and they mean to live up to it. This has meant having to become a significant military power. If you live between neighbors who want to rape you, you have to keep a shotgun handy. And if they break through door, you have to use it. Try living in Israel, with bombs going off on buses, missiles crashing into residential neighborhoods. I don't know why you have a hate on for Israel, and I am not going to imply anything nasty, but I think you are unable to see all sides of this thing.
And with a thought experiment, pretend that dozens of Iranian warships surrounded America, and that the Iranians regularly sent sabotage and assassination squads into America to do their dirty deeds. Imagine the Iranians had put a successful embargo / blockade on any American products exported overseas. If you can imagine that, you're getting a pretty good idea of our involvement with the affairs of Iran.
Also, with the power differential between Israel and Iran militarily, do you really think the Iranians would be interested in lobbing a warhead at the Israelis, knowing that 200 A-bombs would probably be immediately dispatched back? No that doesn't make any sense.
Methinks you've been swallowing too much American propaganda disguised as TV news. Even the New York Times and Washington Post are unreliable thanks to the Israeli lobby. If you checked out the BBC or even the Canadian CBC, you'd get a more evenhanded picture of what's going on in the Middle East.
if iran is trying to establish weapons parity, as the ussr and then china did with the usa, it may simply be the rational response of a nation that has been under continual assault by the cia and now mossad since the overthrow of the mossadegh parliamentary government in '54. if you characterize iran as a member of 'the axis of evil' and then invade iraq, what do you think is rational behavior from iran- prostrate submission to the will of the american government?
it is true that israel is often threatened by iran, but then israel often kills iranians.
it is also true that iran, and most middle east muslims, despises israel, as an invader of palestine, and oppressor of those palestinians still trapped under the occupation of the israeli army. but that's only natural.
what is unnatural is characterizing the militarist creation of polish gangsters as the victim rather than the thug.
Also, I love you my darling!!!!!! (I wish I could make little hearts like FusunA does). And have no fear, I'll protect you from the rabble; you have better things to do like branding AL + MF in a steer or something!
@Nana: Hey! Don't tell Arthur to read books. Arthur has more books in his little finger than you do in your whole head so there.
And we all know you're a carpenter but what's your specialty? I bet it's crosses, to nail the Arthur Louises of the world to.
The Iranian government declared de facto war on the United States when it took the hostages. That was less than two hundred years ago, and there doesn't seem to have been a peace treaty. It is a sponsor of terror, and the lives of Americans have been taken by its clients. It is one of the most repressive regimes in the world. Have you ever committed adultery? Better remain in the states. (Relax, I have no inside knowledge.)
But it appears that I am letting myself be distracted by discussions of the USA v. Iran. The purpose of this article, which seems to have been muted by the predictable anti-US diatribes, was to point out how Iran considers itself part of a continuum aimed at the extermination of the Jews. This is not a good thing, and every decent human being should be condemning it in the strongest terms. We already have had one Hitler too many.
Would you care to condemn it?
"Iran considers itself part of a continuum aimed at the extermination of the Jews."
This is a remarkable statement. Can you provide some proof to back it up? I don't mean hearsay, or talking points, but actual evidence we can examine and discuss before coming to solid conclusions.
If you can't show us any, I suggest you stop shouting "fire" in what has become a very full theater.
One thing I wonder is how a country of 75 million people can "consider itself" anything, as if it had only a single brain. How does that work? I would really like to understand this process.
You are reaching into left field when you bring Mossadegh into the discussion, although I will concede that his overthrow was morally inexcusable.
But you make me laugh when you start ranting against "Polish gangsters." Remember all those Polish gangsters who took a one-way train ride to Auschwitz? It is in their honor, and with the hope that nobody else is ever honored in this way, that I wrote this piece.
Like most Israel-haters, you seem to think that the nation and its leaders enjoy spending a ton of money every year on military preparedness. They would much rather spare themselves the expense, and would rather not be under siege all the time.
They would have preferred to live in peace with their neighbors, but those rascally neighbors have this unpleasant habit of waging war against them periodically. Is it any wonder that Israel built itself into a significant military power? What choice was there?
Israel did not invade anything. The Jews of Europe, including those Polish gangsters of yours, were given a homeland with the resounding support of a world still grieving over what Hitler did. You seem to have absolutely no sensitivity to this.
I am tempted to ask why you really hate Israel, because I am not sure that you have shown us all your cards. But instead I am going to take what you say at face value, and what you say is one-sided and hateful, and the world has had enough of that.
The answer is too obvious. The mouthpiece for the Iranian government says he wants to wipe Israel off the map. Are you suggesting that this honest-looking fellow is being dishonest?
I see no reason to address the point about whether all Iranians feel this way. Not everyone in Germany supported Hitler, but that is neither here nor there. Look what Germany did.
Do I really have to do your work for you? Okay, then I will. Start out with these two sources and get back to me after you've read them:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/did-ahmadinejad-really-say-israel-should-be-wiped-off-the-map/2011/10/04/gIQABJIKML_blog.html
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/17/israeli-minister-agrees-ahmadinejad-never-said-israel-must-be-wiped-off-the-map/
Now if you have any solid evidence that contradicts what these experts have stated in public, then it is your responsibility to state it here - now. Otherwise you are are just engaging in irresponsible warmongering.
Thanks for the citations, and I did read them. I am not qualified to analyze speeches in Persian, although I did once try learning that language.
This seems to be semantic hair-splitting. If you asked poor, misunderstood Ahmadinejad whether he wanted to wipe Israel off the map, and said it in the plainest terms, perhaps in French so there could be no ambiguity, what do you suppose the answer would be?
Also, why do you suppose Iran is developing nuclear weapons and those nasty missiles?
I hope the day never comes when I can say to you "I told you so." What about you, do you hope that day never comes?
Arthur, thanks for reading the links. I encourage everyone else here to do the same. Since you openly admit that your post is based on no facts whatsoever, I will now conclude that you have no evidence for your sensational claims and that you are practicing warmongering.
--I hope the day never comes when I can say to you "I told you so." What about you, do you hope that day never comes?--
You told me what? You're telling me lies, Arthur, lies you've in turn been told by other people with a bloodthirsty agenda. I hope you'll stop now, for everyone's sake, before it's too late. War is too serious a business for it to be decided on using loose talk like this.
I hope you are correct, and that Iran poses no threat to Israel, but I don't believe it. (The comment about French was intended as a gag, but I can see that you are not in a joking mood.)
I have never been able to figure out how Mahmoud manages to maintain a consistent slovenly appearance, with his beard never growing longer or becoming shorter. He must be incredibly skilled with a razor.
Don Johnson also had that talent.
I would like you to search your mind, such as it is, and then come back and write an essay on the blackboard with the title "Why I Hate Israel -- the Real Reasons."
You say that the Israelis are the "aggressors." What did you say in 1948, 1967 and 1973, when the true aggressors in the region invaded Israel?
Israel has the right to defend itself, and given the lessons of WWII it has exercised that right. Do you hate Israel enough to want it destroyed? If so, you can consider yourself a part of history. Tsar Nicholas, meet your soulmate older/exasperated.
Of course you hate Israel. Has your Alzheimer's advanced so far that you forgot writing this?: "The Israeli's (sic) are their own worse (sic) enemy, they are the aggressors and antagonist (sic) in the area, using propaganda and politics to justify their purpose."
However, like any opportunistic businessman, you are happy to deal with them if it lines your pockets.
Answer this for me: Would you like to see Israel wiped off the map? That is what this post is about. A simple yes or no, please.
,
So many gave so much that the world might know a peace. And ... now ... do we work to hold that peace ... or do we work to prepare for war and which do we feel matters more. We seem to hear day by day and year by year the beating of so many drums looking toward war. Let me frighten you far more than you can frighten me. Let me block my eyes and only see ... what is best for me ... and somehow in the midst of all the beating of these drums ... what is most lost ... is hope of peace.
War machine ... here ... who can say that is not true ... and now even with a president who, I so want to believe, will look for ways to fight for peace instead of waging war ... how to know ... how to know ...
Once I worked with students who often wrote about Britain’s role in Palestine. Some were from the Palestine. Some were not. Some were listening and wanting to know. Reading and writing and listening ... and trying to see what it was they saw.
So much history is here.
I see faces. I see eyes ... and I wonder this. I feel sure there are Israelis who more than anything else want to live in peace. Peace requires reflection. Peace requires honesty ... not just from one side ... but from both.
I know some on both sides are trying for this ... even if it hard to hear their voices. They are there and trying to speak ... trying to offer their hands in peace.
So much attention on Israel and on its needs ... and yet ... as I listen day by day and year by year ... I wonder why we don’t hear more from people there ... a people who suffered and survived somehow ... a holocaust ... who must be able to see themselves ... the holocaust ... perhaps sometimes more subtle but equally lethal in its way ... imposed by their governments’ hands on those who first and for so long ... lived on land hardly any longer theirs.
Perhaps it is still too close.
You will have less and less and less and we will have more and more and more. We deserve. It is our right. Who speaks for those on the other side.
Where is the world when the voices of those for so long and in so many ways ... dispossessed ...try and speak. Divide a people. Break their souls. Take all hope of hope away. When there is so much hopelessness, anger will find a way to rise ... and yet ... they try to hold their spirits as they look within themselves to find a way for peace. Where are voices here who might speak for them ... except ... it is an election year ... and gold ... seems able to buy almost every voice ...
It may be impossible for us to see this in the same way. I so want there to be peace ... and on the ground there ... both sides of a wall ... there are many who, also, want to find a peace.
I have no more to offer here ... but I wish to speak for voices it becomes so hard to hear.
Why you pusillanimous little...
Oh Arthur I didn't mean that. Life's so short. And you're so crotchety. What d'ya say we get out of here and run off to a kibbutz together?
A.L. comment to Al Loomis : Like most Israel-haters, you seem to think that the nation and its leaders enjoy spending a ton of money every year on military preparedness.
Make that : "... the nation and its leaders enjoy spending 3 billion dollars of American taxpayers' money every year ..."
@ Judy Mandelbaum : Brava, & bless you. You tried, as did Libby.
This is a kindergarten post.
@ anna1liese : Bless you. Your eloquent and beautiful comment is wasted here, but I'm glad to have read it.
@ Margaret : I told you he was a dud.
I think you mean "you're" an idiot...
This is an equal-opportunity post. I welcome comments from people in all stages of illiteracy.
Let me rephrase my question: If you stopped doing business with Israel, would you then like to see the country wiped off the map?
Would you like to answer the magic question?: Do you want to see Israel wiped off the map? It is the question I am asking, belatedly in some cases, of all the Israel-haters.
I don't want you to feel pressured, but bear in mind that if I don't like the answer, you will have to return your official God certificate and badge.
I think most of the people who have commented on this post would favor the sale of arms to Iran.
As long as you are here, how would you like to answer the question of the day?: Q.:Would you like to see Israel wiped off the map.
Something puzzles me. Why did you need Boy Named Kim to tell you that I was a dud? You had plenty of opportunity to figure that out on your own.
was bound to get you views, despicably.
Not addressing valid questions ( mine : Egypt ; American 'protection' in WW2 ; $3bn American pa ; etc ) diminishes all else on your thread. Until you find yourself competent to address valid questions, you remain inert.
Wiping Out The Jews ...
I don't EVER want to see Israel "wiped off the map," as you put it.
I want to see American taxpayers' money go to health care & education, in their OWN land.
I want to see Israeli boundaries restored to what was granted in 1947. I want to see the walls come down, & I want to see the Palestinian refugee diaspora restored to their homelands, away from Egypt, Jordan & Lebanon.
I want to see peace, not your screwed-up version of entitlement.
It is true that the U.S. gives Israel $3 bill. a year in aid, mainly military, and that this is the most for any country. This appears to be the cost of protecting Israel from its hostile neighbors. If those neighbors did not keep declaring war against Israel, or lobbing missiles into Israel's territory, or setting off bombs on school buses, if they would just live as good neighbors, that $3 bill. could be drastically reduced. We have decided that Israel is an ally, and when an ally's existence is threatened, one does what one can.
By the way, the USA's second largest aid recipient is Egypt, with about $1.6 billion. Would you rather see all that money too spent on the home front, or are you cool with it?
I am glad that you do not want to see Israel and its inhabitants obliterated, but you may be unrealistic about what you do want to happen in that country. Israel did not ask to be warred upon in 1948, 1967 and 1973, but when this happened it fought back and conquered additional territory to give it a buffer zone against future aggression. Even with all that it is a tiny country, it does not have oil in the ground to grease the way economically, and it is vulnerable to quick annihilation by a nuclear power. Somehow it worked an economic miracle in that hostile, desert land, and it is understandably reluctant to hand over the fruits of that miracle to sworn enemies who fled long ago, swearing to someday WIPE IT OFF THE MAP.
Many, if not most, of the Palestinians who fled the country back in the day did so because neighbor states, notably Egypt, assured them that their armies would WIPE THE ISRAELIS OFF THE MAP and then they could come back and have the place to themselves. They f----d up, and there have been consequences.
I hope you find that sufficiently responsive. I would like to address all your other concerns, which are, in your words, "valid questions ( mine : Egypt ; American 'protection' in WW2 ; $3bn American pa ; etc )." Alas, I am having trouble deciphering that, although I think I gave you an answer about the "$3bn. American pa."
If you really want to discuss all this with me, rather than tell me what a fool I am, let's do it in a civilized manner. If you are so hot about these issues that everything I say sets you off like a Roman candle, then let's not bother.
"The Egyptians tried their hand at wiping them out under the pharoahs."
What is this about ? Are you referring to the period when Joseph was made Governor ? Later ? When, exactly, did the Egyptians try their hand at wiping out the Jews ?
The Jews have been serially persecuted down through the ages. It is a miracle that there are any left. Now, with a nuclear Iran in the picture, we could be entering an important new stage in this lamentable continuum.
I don't recall ever seeing you express sorrow about Hitler's Holocaust, but perhaps I have not looked closely enough. If you want to cite instances, I shall be happy to check them out.
However, there is no doubt that you can cry up a storm for the people who now hope to rub out the survivors.
I am going to ignore, this time, your jab about how slow I am. If you really want to communicate with me, you will stop that sort of thing. If you are just playing to the gallery, then I don't want to continue. Grow up, Kid.
Thanks for taking the time to write that long and thoughtful comment. It is wonderful to have some fresh air blow through this post.
The persecution of the Jewish people in England where they were cornered and faced absolute slaughter --- another example. I'm out of here for now --
You are aware then, that Egypt felt the loss of the semites more than they could bear, and indeed their hold soon crumbled.
I guess I was waiting for an explanation about Egyptians trying their hand at wiping out the Jews, but you don't seem able to address it.
I'm the last person here, I hope, to imply age = slowness. My comment in that regard was aimed at your tendency to pick and choose from an adversarial claim, a practice I find deplorable, transparent, blatantly dishonest, in discussion.
What you think of men with 'women's' names you can keep.
@ Lynette : Sorry I caught the last of your comments. Little bit busy down here processing Pol Pot's annihilation of 2.5 million Cambodians, a direct legacy of your friend Mr Kissinger.
thanks for the slightly more temperate tone.
I don't recognize my post in your description of it. I didn't think it would get a lot of attention when I posted it, because I didn't reckon on the widespread hatred for Israel that persists on this site. I only knew that there was a little of it.
I simply wanted to make the point that the Jews have been persecuted consistently through the ages, including massive genocidal attacks, and it looked as though, with modern weapons, the end might be near. There are far more examples of this persecution than I mentioned off the top of my head. It has gone on almost everywhere in the world at one time or another, and in all ages. I figured that with all the people on this site who claim to be humanists, I might get some sympathetic tsk-tsks to back up my concern. The plight of the Jews, I felt, was a human plight. I didn't think that there was all that much in my post that was disputable.
Instead I received an avalanche of vicious diatribes from Israel-haters. Israel, I learned, was pure evil, and a far more dangerous and immoral place than Iran. What was left unsaid was that the people who think so wouldn't mourn very long if Iran (or any other entity) destroyed Israel. The attitude seems to be that they have it coming. That's why I started asking people point blank whether they wanted to see Israel wiped off the map.
History has taught us that there are lots of crazy haters out there. Their tribe has a long, if not proud, descent. OS has its share of them, and some of their works are displayed for your delectation in the comments above.
I wish I hadn't diluted my main point by letting myself get draw into a discussion of current and historical relations between the USA and Iran. I take the blame for that because I introduced the subject. It really is off point.
If you think the Egyptian treatment of the Israelite slaves was benign, then it might be difficult to reason with you. Exactly what happened over there and back then is hazy, of course, because it is filtered through the poetic license of the Bible. But it was a bad scene for sure. But that's OK, they had it coming, right? Maybe because of Netanyahu?
When I cited examples of the persecution of the Jews, I did so off the top of my head. Perhaps I should have been more scholarly and more thorough. It probably is impossible for anyone to recall all the times the existence of the Jews has been threatened. It has happened in all places and in all ages. The documentation is staggering.
Here are a few I didn't mention, which I am cribbing from such sources as Wikipedia:
1.) 900 to 1000 years ago, by the Brits and Germans. Entire communities slaughtered. Most especially during the Crusades.
2.) Later Crusades in France, England and Austria. These sent many Jews fleeing to Poland, where they would much later have their rendezvous with the Nazis.
3.) The 14th century black plague epidemics were blamed on the Jews, and they were slaughtered as a prophylactic measure.
4.) In the 1500s, mass slaughter by the Portuguese, for religious reasons, in their territories in India.
5.) I'll mention in passing the persecution of Jews in the Soviet Union, which somehow escaped my memory on the first go-round.
Really, the list is almost endless. Do you give a shit, or does the Netanyahu government cancel all that out? I am still waiting for a bibliography of your lamentations over the Holocaust. You are such an admirable humanist.
My intention was never to diminish the role of the US in the SW Pacific. I know what it cost ~ your country & mine.
I was responding to this comment :
As far as the war machine is concerned, have you ever speculated about where your posterior would be right now if the U.S. hadn't fought the war in the Pacific?
Which ( to me ) distorted our commitments out of all proportion.
Australian troops were called back from Europe to defend Singapore.
Yours were there to defend thePhilippine base.
We've been inextricably linked since.
Point me to where I've dissed US involvement down here ( apart from Kissinger's.) I lost an uncle alongside your people in New Guinea. My dad was there. It could not have been closer, but the Japanese, despite whatever Arthur Louis thinks, were not here to conquer Australia. Nor was the US to defend us.
I was pointing to an example of wholesale slaughter that so often goes unnoticed, in discussions about "how many."
I don't know how many Jews were hunted down & killed in Britain.
I'm aware that American foreign policy is a deadly force, & that is all.
How to say this ... ?
My life-partner is a Jew. I love her, dearly.
Art, you summed up your own problem: "I wish I hadn't diluted my main point by letting myself get draw into a discussion of current and historical relations between the USA and Iran. I take the blame for that because I introduced the subject. It really is off point."
Maybe off point but, look at all the comments from the big brains. Just sayin', there's two sides to everything.
SHUT THE F*CK UP TR IG AND GO BACK TO SEX STALKING THE MEN OF OS
ANYhoo! Well you're a smart gal and you'll know doubt figure things out but just a heads up on a couple or three things to get you started:
I'm no dummy and I can spot a skank from a mile away. And that's fine! Except where Arthur's concerned. Don't get any ideas sweetie 'cause he's 110 % mine. Hands off, or one day you may find YOUR hands are off, permanently and there'll be no more bloggin' fun for you.
Glad we got that out of the way.
Again, I extend my warmest welcome to you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y24hwp2F2c
Is all this shared history solely an artifact of the rapaciousness of the American war machine? Is it just about our common Limey heritage? Or what? I don't have any ready answers for any of that, but these are things I wonder about.
Marjie, you harlot: stfu. Mr. Lous is mine, do you hear me, Jezebel? Sure, at first it was only the beard and the slightly downscale tweediness that caught my interest, but I've learned since then to value the man's SOUL, which is more than a succubus like yourself could ever understand.
You and Margaret got married!?!?
Congratulations?
(Oh, I couldn't resist....and no, that wasn't it...I got tired of trying to learn German. I should have stuck with it, a piece of cake compared to Mandarin.
I think Cantonese will be easier...)
Everybody is warned not to bother learning Cantonese. It is only spoken by about a few hundred million people.
We ( Australia ) grew up under Britain ~ hence Boer Wars, Gallipoli, all that. N Africa, Palestine, Greece ~ christ, we were sheep-farmers !
Then New Guinea, then Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan ...
We just seem to have traipsed around after one plutocracy after another, but I'm thinking now, it's China's turn to try, & we're a whole lot wiser ...
Are you trying to give the impression that you are normal?
But Arthur's worth it.
@Nana: I didn't know you could use THOSE kinds of words on a blog - I am blushing! And how do you know what me & Arthur do behind closed doors on a king-sized heart-shaped bed covered in silk leopard print sheets, beneath a mirrored ceiling with a disco ball, smoke machine and Donna Summer crooning 'love to love you baby' playing on continuous loop.
You can't have Arthur! I've already laid claim to him. But you can have his soul; I don't need that (although if you could see him, you'd forget all about his soul, and yours too). I've been giving him steroid injections and feeding him high doses of the three V's in IV form: vitamins, veggies and Viagra. All I can say is, WOW. I'll say it again: WOW! All those V's equal VIRILE!. And that's an outdated pic of him in the avatar btw; no rayon jackets or stuffy cardigans for King Arthur; all he wears is wife beaters and man, he wears them things out. When we go to the C&W bar on Fri. night, no one rides the mechanical bull anymore - they all want to ride my Arthur.
Don't pay attention to Margaret. She thinks she is being funny.
I appreciate your interest in my post, and look forward to reading more of your own stuff.
I read your bio -- you might like Oryoki, also a Quirky Quaker/Buddhist (her bio, I think) descended from an abolitionist family...
Margaret, whaddaya doin' scaring the newbies, you silly goose?
Vous êtes un incorrigible, brillant dents blanches coquin, que vous êtes.
(Oh, just practicing my French, since Art's been showing off his German....)
Too late, I saw : )
Re. looks: don't sell yourself short. You're pretty stunning for a front porch.
Leaving so soon when you just got here? Oh come on, if you go you will have less and less and less and we will have more and more and more. Fun that is. We have so much fun doing things like traipsing through plutocracies, wiping pharoahs, bathing in blood and dining from Pol's cast iron pot. If you leave you'll miss it!
I shall check!
Arthur? Art, my darling?
ARTHUUUR! Get your skinny butt back in bed right this minute and stop talking to that skank Lynette!!!
@JT: Oui doggie! Sorry but no parlay voo franswah, petty 4 or grand mal seizure and stuff.
That was:
'You are a sparkly-toothed incorrigible rascal, you are.'
I think...
'pearly-toothed'?
Anyway.
The whole world's gone crazy, I know, but....??