THE WOLFPACK (THREE GIRLS AND A DOG)

Views From the Cynical Side of the Aisle

Andy Wolfenson

Andy Wolfenson
Location
Randolph, New Jersey, United States
Birthday
December 04
Title
I was advised not to tell
Company
www.inhisowndefense.com
Bio
Author of the recently released "In His Own Defense", now available on amazon.com and Kindle. www.inhisowndefense.com Frustrated wanna-be sportswriter who, in his spare time from traveling from the office to other work locations and attempting to write a succession of wildly-successful novels, occasionally pens blogs about sports, the Yankees, and other topics.

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Salon.com
Editor’s Pick
SEPTEMBER 20, 2011 8:57AM

Mariano Rivera Sets the Saves Mark, But is He the Best Ever?

Rate: 8 Flag

Yesterday, the Yankees’ Mariano Rivera retired three straight Minnesota Twins to notch his 602nd career save and, with that perfect inning, secured himself the top spot among major league baseball’s all-time saves leaders. He moved one ahead of Trevor Hoffman, who retired last year after compiling 601 career saves. And even in his 40's, Mariano shows little signs of slowing down. This save was his 43rd of the 2011 season, and there is no reason to believe that he will not reach 650, if not more, before he eventually retires.

                      (1)

Sportswriters and the Yankee faithful, not surprisingly, are hailing Mo as the greatest reliever ever to play the game. There is much statistical support for this proposition, of course: in addition to the 602 saves, which have been compiled over a 15-year span, Rivera also possesses the most post-season saves as well as a microscopic post-season ERA. So while he has had the most opportunities to pitch in the post-season by virtue of pitching for perennial playoff-bound New York, he has certainly made the most of these opportunities. He has never had less than 28 saves in a season since becoming the Yankees’ closer in the late 1990’s, and his durability has been nothing short of remarkable.

But is he the greatest reliever of all time? That is certainly open to debate. He is without question the greatest closer of all-time; that is, he is the best at pitching one inning or less and finishing off games, as the role has come to be defined over the past couple of decades. In an era spawned by Oakland’s Dennis Eckersley and others, an era dominated by seventh and eighth-inning specialists and lefty/righty specialists, Mariano stands atop the leader board. There can be no doubt. When one considers all relievers, and opens the discussion up to prior eras, then the issue becomes more clouded.

Sports are rife with debates about the best players, especially when one tries to compare one era to another. Deciding the best reliever of all time is no different. And to some, the debate will come down to two pitchers – each of whom pitched for the Yankees and struck fear in the hearts of opposing batters – Mariano Rivera and Rich Gossage. There are no easy answers to this question; it is much like Colts’ fans arguing over who was the better quarterback, Johnny Unitas or Peyton Manning. Or Lakers’ fans arguing over who was better, Magic Johnson or Kobe Bryant. Each side can make cogent arguments to support their position. The fact that the players were from different eras, with different styles of play and differing requirements in order to master their position, makes the debate all the more difficult.

The 1970’s-era relievers were a much different breed than today’s closers. Today, the “closer”, as the role has been defined, consists mainly of pitchers who never see the mound prior the ninth inning. Even if the game is on the line in the seventh or eighth inning, managers are loathe to bring in their closer for fear that he will then not be able to pitch the ninth inning and “close” the game. The 70’s were different. In that decade, and until Oakland’s Tony LaRussa began to use Eckersley and the rest of the A’s bullpen in more defined (by inning, that is) roles, the term “closer” was not used. Relievers were known as “firemen.” They were used to squelch potential rallies by the opposing team, whether those rallies were in the seventh, eighth, or ninth innings. As the afore-mentioned Rich Gossage, a member of the Hall of Fame, has always been quick to point out, he still holds the record for most saves consisting of two or more innings of work.

Those 70’s relievers were a scary, surly bunch. Much has been made of the Giants’ Brian Wilson and his “fear the beard” persona. Now, he seems like a unique individual. Back then, he would have simply fit in with the crowd. “Goose” Gossage had the giant fu Manchu and his hulking figure made him look like a giant on the mound. Bruce Sutter , one of the other greats from that era, sported a beard that rivaled Wilson’s while pitching for the Cubs, Cardinals, and Braves. The Yankees’ Sparky Lyle sported a fu Manchu, and Rollie Fingers brought the handlebar mustache back into style for Oakland and Milwaukee.  

Rich Gossage (2)

And then there was Al Hrabosky, perhaps the wildest of them all. Nicknamed “The Mad Hungarian”, Hrabosky also sported a thick fu Manchu – and he would whip the Kansas City (and, later, Atlanta and St. Louis) crowd into a frenzy when he would step off behind the mound, rub the ball furiously, and then slam the ball into his glove while wheeling around and returning to the pitching rubber to face a batter. It was a theatrical show that would not be tolerated in today’s game. It was intimidating. He was, if nothing else, the precursor to Mr. Wilson and his beard.

 Al Hrabosky (3)

Gossage, Sutter, Eckersley, and the great Lee Smith are all enshrined in the Hall of Fame. As such, the debate over who was the best, if not Mariano, must begin and end with them. A case could be made for Eck, who redefined the role of closer after a successful career as a starting pitcher – he retired with over 200 victories and 300 saves, remarkable numbers by any standard. Sutter was the dominant reliever in the National League, even when pitching for lousy teams in the 70’s. Lee Smith was the saves record holder prior to Hoffman, which seemed to me more a testament to his longevity.

Which leaves Gossage, who, as noted above, still holds the record for two-inning or more saves. At a time when pitchers would routinely go two innings or more in order to garner a save, the Goose was the most intimidating. Now, in an era where pitchers rarely see more than one inning of work in order to get a save, Rivera is, with his cut fastball, the most intimidating. So is either “better” than the other? Perhaps not. Each man dominated the position. Each set a standard by which others can be measured. One is in the Hall of Fame. The other is a lock to be enshrined in his first year of eligibility.

In the end, more people will consider Rivera the best ever due to his number of saves. Assuming he retires in the 650 range, a pitcher would have to average 40 or more saves over 16 years just to equal that mark. A glance at today’s rosters does not reveal any pitchers who will likely endure for that long, much less with that level of greatness. And I would tend to agree. Although we usually romanticize the past, which would enable me to remember days sitting on the couch and watching the fearsome Goose mow down batter after batter for the 1978 champions, I have been equally privileged to watch Mariano Rivera for the past 15 years, to listen to the strains of “Enter Sandman” as he jogged to the mound, and watch him raise his hand time and again after nailing down victory after victory, both in the regular season and playoffs/ World Series. This vote is for Rivera.

Photo Credits

(1) www.nydailynews.com

(2) www.skylinepictures.com

(3) www.7is.neswblogs.com

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Comments

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Where is Trevor Hoffman? and no mention of Sparky Lyle

Hopefully we (Phillies) will see you in the Series again -this time with a different result.
OK you did mention Hoffman and Lyle. math professors need to read twice to comprehend.
That's OK, doc. At least someone's reading. And you didn't get on my case for not including Tug McGraw, so I thank you.
- wonderful to see you back with a baseball article, Andy!

"I get the ball, I throw the ball and then I take a shower."

- Mariano Rivera
You know my feeling about the great Mo, but blowing the World Series against the Diamondbacks and the hated Red Sox is something I can never forget. Two more banners hanging in Yankee Stadium if he doesn't blow those two saves. But, you can also say we would never even have gotten there for a few of those series, so it's a wash. I loved the Goose, he was always my favorite.
Lee Smith is not in the Hall of Fame.
Speaking as a Cardinals fan who saw Sutter at his very best (unfortunately when he was a Cub), I can say Rivera is the best reliever ever. Goose was the most intimidating and threw harder than Mo. Eckersley had, arguably, the single greatest season for a closer. Rivera has been (mostly) brilliant year in and year out throwing one devastating pitch. Everyone knows the cut fastball is coming. Everyone knows its motion. Yet so few hit it.

Where's Hoyt Wilhelm in this discussion? I'm only somewhat serious, but, damn, he was the man in the Sixties. And he'd come in and throw three or four innings of relief. And to keep things in a bit of perspective, the idea of a specialized relief pitcher is barely 50 -55 years old, going back to guys like Roy Face. That's still less than half of the history of major league baseball.
Two EPs about Mariano in the same week? I'd better change the title to my next post.

To paraprhase what I said on Nick Leshi's blog, we're comparing apples and oranges. Guys like Gossage and Lyle were under much more stress, often coming in during the 7th inning with men on base. Heck, last game of the 1977 series vs KC, Lyle came in during the 4th inning.

However, I think Mariano would have done just fine under the old system, because he seems unflappable. A lot of guys - i.e. Lee Smith and Mitch Williams - would have been shattered psychologically by blowing the 7th game of a World Series. Rivera just shrugged it off and continued his high standard of excellence for another 10 years. He has never had a bad season and he's never suffered a serious injury. He's the standard by which everyone else is judged. (And this is coming from a die-hard Mets fan.)
Catherine - thanks, it is good to be back.

Scanner - he did give up the big hit a couple of times, but an ERA below 1.00 in the post-season should trump those blips.

Penny - oops, time to fire my fact-checker. Thanks for the correction.

Stim - I kept it to people that I was fortunate enough to have watched. Adding yet another era just makes the debate livelier.

Cranky - thanks for reading and for your comment. Donnie Moore was the most tragic example of the pressures of failure as a closer, committing suicide after giving up "the big hit" to Boston's Dave Henderson. Mo has been unflappable, and has done it under the intense media glare of NY and the pressures of almost annual trips to the post-season.
Andy, I'm sure the SABRmetrics crowd would have a consensus on this. I'm guessing it would be Rivera but the formula would take account of the number of innings pitched, the average ERA of the period, the "expected" runs allowed versus the actual and which reliever "prevented" the most. The actual number of saves by itself doesn't tell you enough, though it points to likely candidates. I used to follow the SABRmetrics stuff but haven't for several years. But I'm sure that any Baseball Prospectus subscriber could tell you.

And I'll second the mention of Hoyt Wilhelm.
Nice post, enjoyed the trip through time and indeed the pitchers back in the heyday had a harder job in front of them. I really enjoy when they let someone stay in for the whole game or close, rarity nowadays but nice to watch.
PS Cranky, I believe Emily admitted in Nick's post she was a huge fan... should've picked up on that!
Abrawang - pure statistics don't always tell the story, unless they are so staggering, like Mariano's, that there can be little question as to his dominance. As for Hoyt Wilhelm, as I said above, he was jsut before my time. To people my age, he was the guy who pitched in more than 1,000 games - but to include him based solely on that would mean that I would also be discussing Jesse Orosco and others. But Orosco held on just because he was a lefty and was able to get one or two guys out at a time, and discussing him only makes me lament that my father didn't push me to be a pitcher when I was younger.

Rita - thanks - and personally, I also enjoyed knowing that we could see the "fireman" such as Goose or Lyle come in and pitch two or more innings to nail down a game for the Yanks. I find the current system far too robotic, as I have written in the past.
Has to be Mo. Longevity says a lot. Gossage was not dominating for anywhere near as long. Koufax suffers similarly.

But I must come to the defense of Mitchy Po (as dubbed hilariously by Harry Kalas). He was most definitely not shattered by giving up the homer to Joe Carter to end the 1993 World Series (yes, quibblers, it was the sixth game; so what?). He has often said he'd have booed himself. Yes, he was pissed when people threatened his kids, but he never ran from the media and he never blamed anyone else for the pitch.

Good to see you, Andy! Don't think our teams are going to meet in the Series, though.
Pilgrim - sadly, the only way that our teams will be meeting at World Series time will be if the Yankees take the train down to watch Justin Verlander pitch against the Phillies in late October.