Imagine if Hamas had chosen not to deliberately break the ceasefire by bombing Israelis.
Imagine if Egypt took down its wall across the entire southern border of Gaza today and allowed in food and medicine as the international community has begged it to do.
Imagine if the Palestinian leadership had used the $7.6 billion in aid allocations in 2008 to build roads, hospitals, and sewage treatment plants.
Imagine if Hamas had distributed food and medicine instead of guns and rockets.
Imagine if the Arab countries that hold Palestinians in refugee camps let them out.
Imagine if Palestinians were free to travel to any of the other 20 Arab countries besides Jordan.
Imagine if the Palestinians were allowed to own land in any of the other 20 Arab countries, or become citizens or vote there.
Imagine if Iran didn’t fund terrorist organizations like Hamas.
Imagine if the international community offered to build schools and hospitals in Gaza instead of offering cash that could be used to buy weapons.
Imagine if Arab countries offered peace prizes to Palestinian families instead of cash bonuses to surviving family members of suicide bombers.
Imagine if Palestinian organizations did not have the planned destruction of Israel in their charters.
Imagine if Hamas offered to negotiate.
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Comments
Kind of funny how we encourage democracies but don't always get the results that we'd like.
(Rated)
"Kind of funny how we encourage democracies but don't always get the results that we'd like."
Yes, one of life's little ironies. On the other hand, it's difficult to know exactly what to do besides encourage democracy. There was always the possibility that Hamas would take its obligations to the Palestinian people seriously. Unfortunately, its all about war for them, but they could have responded differently, and many (particularly many Palestinians) had hoped that they would.
Just imagine!
"Imagine if folks like Amy would realize that Israel is as culpable as the Arabs and Palestinians in the mess that is today's Middle East!"
I tried to propose things that would have had a demonstrable practice effect in improving conditions for the Palestinian people. Is there any practical effect my change of mind have on improving things for Palestinians? What are we prepared to do for them, as individuals, not as pawns in international power politics?
did my comment not appear on your post? I may have pressed the wrong button again...
"did my comment not appear on your post? I may have pressed the wrong button again... "
No, I can't find it. I hope you'll post it again.
looks like it did not post again...
wonder if this one will...
hehehe
"I imagine that deleting comments that disagree with you is an excellent strategy for staying "kinder and gentler"."
But then I wouldn't have any comments.
Here are your words:
“There was always the possibility that Hamas would take its obligations to the Palestinian people seriously. Unfortunately, its all about war for them, but they could have responded differently, and many (particularly many Palestinians) had hoped that they would.”
Let me substitute a couple of words here:
“There was always the possibility that Israel would take its obligations to humanity seriously. Unfortunately, its all about war for them, but they could have responded differently, and many (particularly many Palestinians and a whole bunch of other people in the world) had hoped that they would.”
My revision of your statement makes as much, probably more sense, to many of us than the original.
Open your mind.
This is not a problem of Hamas or anyone else being evil against Israel and Israel righteously retaliating! It is a problem of two peoples who live near each other and who hate each other constantly bickering among themselves…with neither being right—and both being wrong.
You simply are of the mindset that Israel and the Jews are victims in this mess—and the Arabs the belligerents.
Amy, I am not sure there are anything but victims in this mess…but if there are victims and belligerents—it is shared victimization and belligerence.
Here is the story my Father told me years later. "The English did shoot my Grandfather and Uncle at their home. They survived the shooting. The Grandfather had a stock of guns in the barn." Meaning more than just one gun to protect themselves.
Strange how these two stories are the same but totally different.
I logged in into to your blog and I am in complete shock at your post. I have been a silent supporter of you ..even throughout the many "messes". How dare you completely blame the ARABS..oh of course, Israel has NEVER broken a ceasefire..go back and read your history books.
I am of 100% Arab descent..yet I do not take the total support and side of palestinians..why?? Because violence begets violence begets...what I do absolutely hate is when the media and bloggers like you constantly portray the Israeli's as the poor victims of the horrible Palestinian terrorists..how dare they retaliate! Let's all conveniently forget that the Palestinians have been displaced from their homes for the past 60 years. But no, they shouldn't be angry about it, nope, because Israeli life is way more precious!! That's why to people like you 5 israeli deaths equal the over 30o palestinian deaths..right?
Give me a break...you say: Imagine if Palestinian organizations did not have the planned destruction of Israel in their charters. ..has Israel not already destroyed what was Palestine?? Why is that OK?!! You are a horrible racist and I don't know if I'll ever come back here again.. :( You really saddened me today .
How can people simultaneously whine about their own historical travails, while creating worse troubles for others? How rational is that?
"Seems a little one sided to me Amy."
That's deliberate. Here's why: these are all things that would improve the fortunes of the Palestinian people that are solely within the hands of those responsible for the Palestinians people.
I am absolutely serious when I say that no one actually cares about the Palestinians as individuals. No one is interested in helping them or improving their daily lives. The world is interested in them only to the extent that their plight can be used to castigate the Israelis. More importantly, their leaders are interested in them only to the extent that their plight can be used to castigate the Israelis.
A strong case can be made that anyone of the above measures would have improved the existence of individual Palestinians. All of them together would have dramatically improved the day to day lives of Palestinians and none of them depend on cooperation from Israel.
"Israel not already destroyed what was Palestine??"
The UN mandate that created Israel in 1948 ALSO created a Palestinians state that was larger than anything envisioned by the Palestinians now, not to mention made up of contiguous territory instead of being split into 2 pieces.
The Palestinians and other Arabs REJECTED a larger state than what they want now. They launched a massive 5 country war against the nascent state of Israel, filled in large part with Holocaust survivors, with the publicly stated claim that they would drive the Israelis into the sea and kill them all. They lost. They launched 4 more wars in a publicly stated attempt to get ALL the land back and wipe Israel off the face of the map. They lost every time and those losses resulted in Israel winning more territory.
Yes, the Arabs are responsible for the fact that the Palestinians don't have a state. They rejected the initial attempt to give them one because they thought they could destroy Israel. To this very day, they resist negotiating for one because they still think that they can get the international community to pressure Israeli into committing collective suicide by forcing concessions.
Yeah, they are responsible.
The Palestinians and other Arabs REJECTED a larger state than what they want now. They launched a massive 5 country war against the nascent state of Israel, filled in large part with Holocaust survivors, with the publicly stated claim that they would drive the Israelis into the sea and kill them all.”
Question Amy:
If someone from outside your family came into your house and said they were going to give the first floor rooms to some third party…and were going to allow you to keep the rest of the house…
…even if you knew that some day in the future you might not be able to get the entire of the rest of the house…
…would you just take “the rest of the house” or would you do everything in your power to get party #2 and party #3 the hell out of your house???
"I'd hate to see you go all squishy on us."
Thanks for the support. As you can see, you don't need to worry.
"…would you just take “the rest of the house” or would you do everything in your power to get party #2 and party #3 the hell out of your house???"
As it happened, the Israel of the UN partition did not contain all the land the Jews thought had been promised to them by the British Balfour declaration of 1917. There were some who counseled rejection and war, but David Ben-Gurion, the future prime minister insisted that the Jews should take whatever they could get. Instead, the Arabs rejected the partition and had the Israelis had to fight a war anyway. The rest is, as they say, history.
Imagine if Israel withdrew all the settlements on land not included in the original U.N. charter.
Imagine if an Israeli did not insist on controlling the borders of the land they have supposedly "returned" to the Palestinians, sustaining their occupation of supposedly non-occupied lands.
Imagine if Israel had not return the confiscated lands of Palestine in divided fragments without sufficient access to natural resources like water supply.
Imagine Zionists like the war criminal Ariel Sharon had never conceived or articulated the notion of a greater Israel.
Imagine the Arab desire to eliminate Israel did not have its mirror image in the Zionist belief in a Biblical right to dramatically exceed their U.N. charter.
Imagine that imperilst belief had no effect on Israeli policy.
Imagine if the Europeans hadn't decided to make the Arabs pay for all the crimes they themselves had committed againt the Jews over centuries, culminating in the Holocaust.
Imagine if the Zionists invoked the Holocaust as a rationale for conflict with the Europeans who perpetrated it.
Imagine if the Zionists did not regard the Palestinians as sub-human and continue to treat them that way.
Imagine if you were trapped by birth, poverty and power on the Gaza strip with no way of protecting your little children against the hard rain of American smart bombs that are just stupid enough to kill them.
Imagine your children in desparate need of medical supplies which never arrive because, having inflicted this indiscriminant damage the Israeli Defense Force takes quite targeted measures to insure aid groups cannot even begin to repair it.
Now imagine the worst. Your child dies as the result not just of the bombing raids, but of the cynical Israeli interdiction of medical aid.
You can imagine everything Amy Teuter would have you imagine, and you can credit each item in full, and it won't make any of my imaginings, any item on my list, less valid.
The right to exist is not the right to expand nor a right to further occupation, and the right to self-defense is not the right to slaughter innocents.
"Frank Apisa:
"…would you just take “the rest of the house” or would you do everything in your power to get party #2 and party #3 the hell out of your house???"
As it happened, the Israel of the UN partition did not contain all the land the Jews thought had been promised to them by the British Balfour declaration of 1917. There were some who counseled rejection and war, but David Ben-Gurion, the future prime minister insisted that the Jews should take whatever they could get. Instead, the Arabs rejected the partition and had the Israelis had to fight a war anyway. The rest is, as they say, history. "
You really are getting into the habit of not responding to a question when it is asked, but pretending to do so by responding to a question you make up.
Why don't you respond to the question I actually asked???
"it won't make any of my imaginings, any item on my list, less valid."
There are several critical difference between your list and mine. The first is that I am proposing ways to improve the health and wellbeing of the Palestinian people. You are proposing ways for them to gain more territory. There's absolutely no evidence that that would materially improve their existence. The Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank are only half of the existing Palestinian people. The other half live in Jordan and many are Jordanian citizens. Many have a terrible standard of living, but no one cares about that because it has nothing to do with Israel.
Second, my list is forward looking and could actually happen right now. Your list is historical and counterfactual. We can't make any of that happen now.
Third, your list is filled with historical and factual inaccuracies. Most important is this: "Imagine if Israel returned all the land confiscated subsequent to its founding."
The Palestinians have claimed that they would NEVER agree to accept that.
"Imagine if we could somehow come up with a drug that would instantaneously wipe out all human conception of "us" and "them,"
That would be excellent, and would solve so many other problems around the world. If only that could happen.
I imagine the Zionists stop using the racism directed at Jews as an excuse for Zionist racism.
That is forward looking. All of these things could happen. That you refuse to entertain the possibility that Israel could withdraw to her original borders, in "forward" time, proves that you are, like many Zionists, interested not just ion the survival of Israel but in its imperialist expansion--hence the fact that your list conveniently requires *nothing* whatsoever of Israel.
There are no factual inaccuracies in my list, as the example you choose goes to demonstrate. The Israelis have never offered to give back all the occupied lands and wouldn't need Arab permission or acceptance to do so. I'm imagining that they would. I understand that for imperialists like yourself that is a nightmare image, but it cannot be, once again by a rusdimentary logic you do not seem to possess, a factually inaccurate one.
Finally, your response to Apisa is laughable. Morally speaking, the land in the middle east was not Britain's to give away in the first place insofar as they had stolen it. Instead of showing some humility and even ruefulness that Israel came into existence by transfer from the greatest geo-political thieves the world has ever known, you want credit that Ben-Gurion was willing to accept less from the those theives than he really wanted. And that is not even to bring up the Jewish terrorism, like the bombing of the King David hotel, that extortionately drove the transfer process.
But I'm sure you would have approved that original terrorism in the name of some greater ethno-national good. In this, I fear, you have far more in common with Hamas than you like to think.
"My list would grant the Palestinians more territory and more resources but would not improve their lot? By definition that is nonsense."
You can't eat territory. The Arabs control millions of square miles of land and their people have a horribly low standard of living.
That's my point. The supporters of the Palestinians seem to think that the most important goal, possibly the only goal, is wresting territory from the Israelis. Improving the standard of living of the Palestinians themselves appears not to be an objective unless it can be done by wresting territory from the Israelis. Why?
Doesn't the life prospects of Palestinians come before the idea of punishing Israel. Where on the list of objectives is the well being of the Palestinians themselves? Is it even on the list?
None of the things on my list preclude demanding territorial concessions from Israel. Everything on my list involves materially improving the lives of individual Palestinians. Why shouldn't we start there?
I am of the left, profoundly, but loathe the anti-semitism of the far-, euro-, and confused left. If any doubt this, catch up; see this for example: "A New, Political Saint Paul", NYRB, Mark Lilla (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/article-preview?article_id=21978), profiling the indescribably vile French leftist philosopher Alain Badiou, who, going far beyond Holocaust demial, believes Jews, when they call themselves "Jews", are conducting intolerable blackmail on our consciences, and so to retaliate we must "forget the Holocaust". Really. And Badious is very, very popular, despite being a fervent Maoist (Mao = mass murderer), and articulate in his opposition to parliaments and western democracy as a political idea and practice.
I want Israel to continue to always try again, with peace accords and cease-fires and concessions and prisoner releases and withdrawals. To those of us watching closely we just keep wondering why none of this sticks. Either as a method for calming the region, or as proof that Israeli, her democracy and demonstrated intentions, in fits and starts, imperfectly, is nonetheless much, much better than Arab medievalism, servitude, monarchies, and impoverished fiefdoms.
Most of us own a tee-shirt or necklace that would get us executed or lynched or beaten in Saudi Arabia and other Arab states.
One of the supreme ironies of our time is how the general American Left, raised to elevate Jeffersonian democracy, open societies, and loud and multi-various and utterly free speech, can be swayed at all to lionize, romanticize the Islamist POV, the apologia of Arab states, and lines of reasoning that would end Israel and erect more primitive, totalitarian, backward theocracies. It is not hard to find a certain kind of leftist who with one breath quotes Mandela and Ghandi, in the next, repeat the talking points of Hezbollah about Palestine and Jews.
That you, anti-zionists, love the people who are oppressed and are sickened by the death of children is utterly true, visible and believable. That their oppression is almost entirely caused by, correctable at least by, Arab leadership, is weirdly invisible to you. This fact, of Arab neglect of its own, is at the heart of Amy's posts on Israel, and can be true and can be accepted, without compromising your anger at Israel and its policies. It is not only possible to hold such complex and nuanced ideas, but you must.
This will not persuade some anti-zionists, I know. I understand their issues, and share some of them: the Israelis allowed in the Christian Lebanese to Shantilla and Sabra, it WAS a massacre, and when Sharon, the general who let it happen, was made Prime Minister, it forever cemented evil with Israel in many Arab hearts.
But take a stand about what Israel must do without misrepresenting the impossible security debacle they face every day. Choose your fight, whether it is to hold individual Israelis accountable, or to fund bridge programs between Jews and Palestinians, or to rebuild infrastructure in Gaza, or to require documentation for every errant bomb. The thing is, in Israel, you can do that, their press is free and their elective democracy allows it and their military courts have routinely, imperfectly, tried soldiers for excesses.
And applaud the withdrawal for the courageous, or at least correct, action that it was. Recognize how Hamas is corrupt and compromised and indifferent to its own, and deplore, to everyone who will listen, how Palestinian children are raised with gradeshool textbooks -- no, no, no -- that call for Israeli blood and declare them sub-human.
The people in Gaza and the West Bank and Israel are striving individuals and families who deserve to exist.
Love the children in Gaza, and the children of Israel, with equal passion.
I honestly don’t think that is their goal. It seems to me it is more a means to an end.
I think they are frustrated beyond comprehension and are lashing out in any way they can at Israel and the Jews. That is their “goal”—simply lashing out at Israel and venting their frustration.
I think they hate the notion of Israel just being plopped down there—and them being moved, marginalized, or thrown out.
Jews are achievers. They get things done. They’ve done more with the land in the last 50 years than the Palestinians did during the almost 2000 years they had control during the Jewish Diaspora.
But the whole notion of bringing a Jewish state into being right there…essentially marginalizing the Palestinians…is a source of such anger and frustration that cancer and AIDS together look pale in comparison.
The Arabs being whipped in all those wars certainly does nothing to ease any of that anger and frustration. Nor does the conduct of the United States.
Bottom line: Anyone who does not see that this cannot be resolved the way the Arabs and Palestinians are approaching it…and cannot be resolved the way the Israelis are approaching it…is purposefully blind!
The state of Israel should never have been created…or if created, it should never have been done in the middle of the Arab people. The state of Israel should be somewhere else…and any and all Jews who want to live in the original homeland of the Jews…Palestine…should live there without the luxury of being in a home state.
Somehow, the rest of the world has to agree to take that property away from both parties—and to impose its laws and conditions for living there. The state of Israel is an insult to Arabs and Palestinians too great to ever get past. Nothing of consequence for peace will ever happen while the state of Israel exists there and Arabs live there at the same time.
They will never capitulate.
And if people like you, Amy, were Palestinian or Arab rather than Jew…you would never capitulate.
If things stay the way they are…with the state of Israel in the Middle East and Arabs living there also…THERE WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING REMOTELY RESEMBLING PEACE.
The people there will fight, maim, and kill each other forever! And all that reasoning and rationalizing and justifying that you, and so many others like you, are doing won't change that one iota.
"But the whole notion of bringing a Jewish state into being right there…essentially marginalizing the Palestinians"
How does a Jewish state marginalize the Palestinians any more than Jordan which exists on the same land offered to the Palestinians in 1948?
How can the Palestinians be marginalized by the mere existence of their neighbors?
Even if you believe that the Palestinians have a right to feel marginalized, why should that stop their supporters from demanding that the world community ease their suffering by supplying them with food, medicine, and infrastructure, instead of cash to buy weapons?
"That you, anti-zionists, love the people who are oppressed and are sickened by the death of children is utterly true, visible and believable. That their oppression is almost entirely caused by, correctable at least by, Arab leadership, is weirdly invisible to you. "
Outstanding quote from an outstanding comment. I wish I had written it.
Please consider posting the entire comment as a post on your blog. It deserves to be widely read.
But instead, the USA turned away boats, other countries made the Jews leave and so Germany incinerated 6 million Jews and 5 million others.
And now.....
I just want to do some level setting here. Would you consider the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto to have been an insurgency of terrorist acts against legitimate authority? Just asking...
“How does a Jewish state marginalize the Palestinians any more than Jordan which exists on the same land offered to the Palestinians in 1948?”
Are you just typing letters and spaces…or are you actually thinking and trying to say something meaningful?
If you do not understand how a Jewish state can affect Arabs more than an Arab state…then something is seriously wrong with you.
Why can a black man go up to another black man and say, “Hey nigger, wass happenin’?” and be greeted with a smile…but a white man doing that same thing might be greeted with a fist to the face? Do you really not understand that? Is that a mystery?
Why does a Jew feel comfortable in a conversation with another Jew in a conversations where the word “Jew” is used often…but often feels uncomfortable in conversations with non-Jews unless the word has an “ish” at the end of it??? Is that another mystery for you?
You wrote: “How can the Palestinians be marginalized by the mere existence of their neighbors? Even if you believe that the Palestinians have a right to feel marginalized, why should that stop their supporters from demanding that the world community ease their suffering by supplying them with food, medicine, and infrastructure, instead of cash to buy weapons?”
OPEN YOUR MIND!
Try to see this situation from their perspective rather than always from yours. THEY ARE FRUSTRATED AND ANGRY TO THE POINT OF RAGE!!!!
They see achievers outplaying them in every endeavor…they see the United States backing Israel no matter what…they see Israel always as the winner, never as the loser—and themselves always as the loser, never as the winner.
C’mon, Amy. Be real!
MY GUESS: Given the choice between food, medicine, and infrastructure versus “one more decent hit on those bastards over there” most of them would opt for causing suffering on the “bastards over there” every time.
They are devastated. They are humiliated. And, yes, they are marginalized whether you can see it through your blinders or not.
"But instead, the USA turned away boats, other countries made the Jews leave and so Germany incinerated 6 million Jews and 5 million others."
There are countless examples of this, but two are particularly notable, the St. Louis and the Wagner-Rogers bill.
The St. Louis (from the ADL website):
"The USS St. Louis, one of the last ships to leave Nazi Germany before the war, set sail for Cuba in May 1939. The 937 Jewish refugees on board each carried a valid visa for temporary entry into Cuba. Unknown to them, their landing permits, issued by the corrupt Cuban director of immigration, had already been invalidated by the Cuban government and the passengers were refused entry. The refugees appealed to the United States, but were refused admittance due to a restrictive immigration policy and a reluctance to interfere with Cuban affairs... [T]he boat was forced to return to Europe. Fearful of returning to Germany, the passengers pleaded with world leaders to offer them refuge. Belgium offered to take in 200 refugees and the British, French and Dutch governments each agreed to grant temporary asylum to the refugees until homes in other countries could be found. With the German occupation of Western Europe in the ensuing years, most of the former passengers once again fell under Nazi rule and were subject to anti-Jewish legislation. A fortunate few succeeded in emigrating or escaping, but by the end of 1941 it became virtually impossible for Jews to flee the continent. Starting in 1942, the Nazis began deportations from Western Europe to the killing centers in the east."
The Wagner-Rogers Bill"
"Legislation was introduced in the United States Congress in 1939 by Rep. Robert Wagner to admit a total of 20,000 Jewish children over a two-year period above the refugee quota applicable at the time. The legislation was inspired by similar efforts by the Dutch and British government to save Jewish children from Nazi terror. The legislation was amended in committee to admit the 20,000 children only if the number of Jewish refugees admitted under the regular quota was reduced by 20,000. The bill died in the House after the sponsor withdrew his support for the bill in frustration. "
"Would you consider the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto to have been an insurgency of terrorist acts against legitimate authority? Just asking..."
I would put it in the same category as the Nat Turner rebellion. Do you think that was legitimate?
I fail to see why the fact that these people were holocaust survivors should be relevant to the Arabs. Arabs didn't kill 6 million Jews, the Nazis did. Why should they be expected for that to excuse the confiscation of their land?
"THEY ARE FRUSTRATED AND ANGRY TO THE POINT OF RAGE!!!!"
So are a lot of people. That doesn't give them license to kill civilians or, more importantly, to use their own people as cannon fodder in order to gain publicity. It also doesn't give them the right to use all national funds for weapons and virtually none for food, medicine and infrastructure.
I'm being honest here, Frank. I just don't get it. What is the problem of attending to the need for the Palestinians to have a decent quality of life before wresting territory from the Israelis. The first does not preclude the second.
I would think that people who care about the Palestinians would try to help them, not simply try to pressure Israel. Is that not a reasonable assumption?
"Arabs didn't kill 6 million Jews, the Nazis did"
And the Arabs were allies of the Nazis. As part of that, the Mufti of Jerusalem spent 1942-1945 in Berlin collaborating with the Nazis. That is the not ideological basis for making Israel the Jewish homeland, but the Arabs were hardly neutral observers.
So are a lot of people. That doesn't give them license to kill civilians or, more importantly, to use their own people as cannon fodder in order to gain publicity. It also doesn't give them the right to use all national funds for weapons and virtually none for food, medicine and infrastructure.
I'm being honest here, Frank. I just don't get it. What is the problem of attending to the need for the Palestinians to have a decent quality of life before wresting territory from the Israelis. The first does not preclude the second.
I would think that people who care about the Palestinians would try to help them, not simply try to pressure Israel. Is that not a reasonable assumption?”
I have no doubt that you are honest and serious about this, Amy. I’ve got way too many Jewish friends not to recognize the pressure being Jewish brings to this discussion.
But the point I am trying to make (the sub-point I am trying to make) is that when people get as frustrated as the Palestinians and Arabs are—all that nice stuff goes out the window…and getting in a few blows becomes more important than basic items of existence.
No way I can prove this (other than by looking at the situation as it obviously stands) but it is my opinion that the entire Arab world has only one thing in mind…to even up the score.
That is going to take some doing…and probably is impossible without eliminating Israel as a state.
But that, in my opinion, is there focus…and will always be their focus.
They, no matter what they say, see Israel as an illegal imposition on them. For the Jews to have control over any part of that peninsula is absolutely unacceptable for them.
No matter what they have to endure…they want to see that the Israelis suffer as much as they are.
And don’t counter with…we should both be aiming at neither suffering…because the will always be suffering if Israel controls the areas it does.
It cannot be worked out…no amount of negotiations will ever work.
Either Israel goes; or the Israelis kill off every last Arab in the area; or someone else takes all of the land away form both factions and sets up rules for anyone living there to live by…
…or war, maiming, killing, suffering goes on and on.
Amy, I know you don’t want to hear this…but your attitude confirms that for me!
The only thing you are willing to consider are changes the opposition has to make.
If you truly wanted peace...lobby for Israel to leave the Middle East as a state and set up elsewhere. Lobby for the United Nations to take over control of the land--and to insure stability among the people who live there.
If you really want peace.
"But that, in my opinion, is there focus…and will always be their focus."
It turns out that we do agree on something. I definitely agree with that assessment. I can also tell you that it's never going to happen. It's done and it's not going to be undone: the Israelis are never leaving Israel. The Jews are done with being victimized. Millions dead, millions tortured, millions displaced in the past 20 centuries, all without any military resistance from the Jews. That's over and those days are not coming back.
I'm curious Frank. Why aren't you demanding, as part of your plan, that the Germans, French, Poles, Russians, etc. restore to the Jews of Israel the property, money, jobs, etc. that were stolen from them across Europe and across the Arab world? Why aren't you insisting that the Europeans and Arabs do for the Israelis what you are insisting that the Israelis do for the Palestinians?
Just responding to the musty venom in your last post:
Do you understand that Hitler was able to achieve power and do what he did by capitalizing 0n the German people's sense of victimization by the settlement of the First World War? A sense of victimization and the need for a scapegoat can justify horrific behavior, because it disables one's moral brakes. The Jews were not the cause of the collapse of post-Weimar German economy, but they were a convenient scapegoat. We've just been through our own flirtation with fascism here. Can't you see the lessons? The Germans have certainly learned and reformed their society, and even many Israelis see what is being done in their name as profaning the memory of the Holocaust.
The fact that you condemned all of my imaginings as backward looking and then didn't even try to defend your misrepresentation when I called you on it has finally convinced me that you are indeed as full of shit as your many detractors insist. So does your unwillingness to even address the IDF violation of international waters in the attack on a medical aid ship. At this point, I am only sorry I wasted so much time conversing with you before realizing how incapable and unworthy you are of rational intercourse. As the New Year rapidly approaches, I am confident in my resolution to ignore all postings and comments with your name on them. So help me God.
I just stopped back by- I'm not even sure why- and saw yr comment. I'm laughing so hard. I know I should stay away from ad hom statements, but yeah, Amy is indeed "incapable and unworthy ... of rational intercourse"... But, um, buddy, I think you meant, or at least should use "discourse" not "intercourse". (Though that's probably true too.) Shudder.
Amy, I repeat, you're a dying breed, and someday soon Israel will be a bicultural secular state. If you think you can hold back that tide, talk to a South African.
However, I disagree, sort of, with your assessment that “…it's never going to happen. It's done and it's not going to be undone: the Israelis are never leaving Israel.”
If there is ever going to be anything even remotely resembling peace in that area, Israel has to cease to exist as “the state of Israel.” And since I want very much for there to be peace in that area, I have to have hope that eventually Israel will cease to be a state. I don’t think the Jews will have to leave that area…and I don’t think significant numbers WILL leave the area, but I think the only way the situation in the Middle East has even a remote chance of being resolved is if Israel ceases to be a state.
You wrote: “The Jews are done with being victimized. Millions dead, millions tortured, millions displaced in the past 20 centuries, all without any military resistance from the Jews. That's over and those days are not coming back.”
Okay…and I hope fervently that you are correct about that. I think it is about time that the non-Jewish world finally wakes up and knocks off the nonsense that ends up with Jews being abused and slaughtered primarily, in my opinion, because they are achievers who manage to do things competently that so many others have difficulty doing. It is one hell of a price to pay for envy among non-Jews for Jewish competency. I truly hope all of us who are non-Jews finally get our shit together enough so that this ridiculous bullshit finally comes to a halt.
But Israel does not have to continue to be a state in order for that to be the case, Amy. And there will never be peace in the Middle East if Israel continues to exist as Israel, the Jewish state.
In fact, I think the continued existence of Israel as it is probably works against your goal of Jews finally being freed from the kinds of shit they’ve had to endure over the last 2000 years—so much so that I think it absolutely PREVENTS that goal from ever being achieved.
You wrote: “I'm curious Frank. Why aren't you demanding, as part of your plan, that the Germans, French, Poles, Russians, etc. restore to the Jews of Israel the property, money, jobs, etc. that were stolen from them across Europe and across the Arab world? Why aren't you insisting that the Europeans and Arabs do for the Israelis what you are insisting that the Israelis do for the Palestinians? “
I hereby publicly demand that the Germans, French, Poles, Russians, etc. restore to Jews everywhere the property, money, jobs, etc. that were stolen from them across Europe and across the Arab world during the last 2000 years. I demand it with all the energy and enthusiasm I can muster. The fact that more has not been done in this regard is one of the most disgusting examples of acquiescence to thievery and injustice currently existing on our planet. It is something that begs for remediation by any professing any sense of decency and justice.
Obviously my personal demand in this regard carries very little weight…so I want at this time also to express my dismayed that America collectively has not done more to correct this injustice.
I hope that allays your concerns and satisfies your curiosity on in that regard, Amy.
[And Amy, I regret that you were able to bait us all for the past few days with such manipulative crap as using this picture and title to accompany a post on your hateful agenda. You should read the lyrics, slowly, to yourself.]
Ok, let's go....
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
Everybody have a great new years!
"In fact, I think the continued existence of Israel as it is probably works against your goal of Jews finally being freed from the kinds of shit they’ve had to endure over the last 2000 years—so much so that I think it absolutely PREVENTS that goal from ever being achieved."
Most Jews believe, and I among them, that this is simply the latest example of these "kinds of shit." Israel is being held to a standard that applies to no other country. Some Americans, for example, are asking Israelis to do what they would never do in a million years.
That's why they call it anti-Semitism, Frank. Not because any criticism of Israeli is anti-Semitic; hardly since the biggest critics of Israel are Israelis. The reason is that Jews feel that once again, they are being held to a special standard that applies to no one else.
I read an article years ago that impressed me very much. The author claimed that each age had its own special brand of anti-Semitism. That's because anti-Semitism is an effort to de-legitimize the Jews and each age depends on different criteria for legitimacy.
Hence, anti-Semitism in the Middle Ages involved accusing Jews of being "infidels." In the 19th century, the age of nationalism, Jews were branded as outsiders, others and traitors, with no country of their own. The early 20th century witnessed Russians insisting that the Jews were capitalists, and capitalist countries insisting that the Jews were socialists.
Think about this for a moment. In the late 20th - early 21st century, what's the worst thing that you can say of a group of people? The worst accusation of our time is to call people imperialists or colonizers. The most vicious accusation you can make it to accuse a people of apartheid. So now Israel is accused of being imperialist and of practicing apartheid. No one seems to notice that Israel meets the definition for neither.
To Jews, who have endured centuries of death, dispossession and destruction, holding Israel to special standards seems to be merely a continuation of the 20+ centuries of anti-Semitism.
But obviously you are not able to even consider, let alone show any respect for, any position except for your own. Your need to suppose that any mindset not in rigid conformity with your own represents sinister motives is both paranoid and intellectually absurd.
I, like the vast majority of other non-Jews I know, grieve for the people of Israel…and we grieve for the Arabs and Palestinians also. We acknowledge that Hamas and the Palestinians are culpable in the mess that is the Middle East…but we also acknowledge that Israel is equally culpable.
At the end of the day, though, one has to recognize the futility of asking people who obviously loathe each other to get along.
You, Amy, represent a line of thinking that assumes Israel has always “gone the distance” in trying to make things right with their enemies. But you cannot see or acknowledge that the mere presence of Israel imposed from outside upon them is an insult to your enemies—an affront and an assault on them greater than any supposed atrocity they have ever committed toward Israel.
That is they way they are thinking…and they are thinking that with the same unyielding rigidity that you bring to your position.
Be stubborn. Keep your rigid thinking. But the price that will be paid is endless war, maiming, killing, fighting, bombing, rocket launching, suicide bombing—and never a moment of peace or tranquility. Never a moment for anybody over there were they will feel completely comfortable and safe.
What a terrible price to pay for obstinacy.
BY THE WAY—why is it that this anti-Semitism you mention has been around for 2000 years? Why is it that Jews with very, very few exceptions have never had neighbors who welcome them…despite the fact that they bring with them science, art, music and so many other social graces? Why, considering what YOU ARE SAYING, should we expect the Arabs and Palestinians who have had a state of Israel simply imposed upon them…get along with Jews to any greater extent than any other people everywhere in the world for the last 2000 years. (Actually, much, much longer, because the Hebrews seemed not to get along with any of their neighbors for 1500 years before that 2000 year period.)
Why Amy? Why????
Is it that the entire of humanity is, and has been, wrong for 3500 years just like you say Hamas is wrong now—and the Jews have been relatively blameless???
I’m not busting balls here. I really want your opinion on why this is!
"BY THE WAY—why is it that this anti-Semitism you mention has been around for 2000 years?"
Because for the last 2000 years, most Christians have been religious bigots, often killing Jews and Muslims when they had the chance.
Israel Has No Intention of Granting a Palestinian State
If Hamas Did Not Exist
By JENNIFER LOEWENSTEIN
Lisa Warren: "Imagine if the USA and the antisemite FDR had agreed (as had other countries ) to take the Jews Germany and others DID NOT WANT AND WANTED TO GET RID OF in the first place, we might not have the Arab Israeli problem now.
But instead, the USA turned away boats, other countries made the Jews leave and so Germany incinerated 6 million Jews and 5 million others.
And now..... "
I have in front of me an excellent book -- "The Abandonment of the Jews: America and the Holocaust, 1941-1945." It was written by David Wyman, who wrote a similar book blasting Vatican City and its pope for similarly negligent behavior during the Holocaust.
I read recently that Anne Frank's father was the college roommate of a high-level Department of State official. Mr. Frank tried innumerable times to get the official to help get him to America and the official made one effort after another. Unfortunately, U.S. policy was so morally bankrupt that even someone with as good a connection as you can have could not get here.
By the way, I don't think FDR was an anti-semite. Despite the nonsense we hear today about how things were in the good old days, the reality is that the concern for humane behavior was not close to what it is today.
Frankly, most Americans did not give a s----. The evidence was there, but most chose to ignore it and there was little public pressure on FDR outside of some Jewish groups.
FDR did take action, but it was way too little, way too late. For example, he authorized the War Refugee Board to make extensive rescues to save Jews. But this was in 1944. Raoul Wallenberg was the WRB's rep in Hungary.
For better news, you can read "Wallenberg" by Kari Morton.
Wyman, by the way, is Catholic. I interviewed him.
Shalom,
ZWrite
(I dramatically cut each of the 10 reasons for space reasons)
1. The American State Department and the British Foreign Office had no intention of rescuing large numbers of European Jews.
2. Authenticated information that the Nazis were systematically exterminating European Jewry was made public in the United States in November, 1942.
3. The War Refugee Board, which the president then established to save Jews and other victims of the Nazis, received little power, almost no cooperation from Roosevelt or his administration, and grossly inadequate government funding.
4. Because of State Department administrative policies, only 21,000 refugees were allowed to enter the United States during the three-and-one-half years the nation was at war with Germany.
5. Strong popular pressure for action would have brought a much fuller government commitment to rescue and would have produced it sooner. Several factors hampered the growth of public pressure. Among them were anti-Semitism and anti-immigration attitudes, both widespread in American society in that era and both entrenched in Congress.
6. American Jewish leaders worked to publicize the European Jewish situation and pressed for government rescue steps.
7. In 1944, the United States War Department rejected several appeals to bomb the Auschwitz gas chambers and the railroads leading to Auschwitz.
8. Analysis of the main rescue proposals put forward at the time yields convincing evidence that much more could have been done.
9. Franklin Roosevelt’s indifference to so momentous an historical event emerges as the worst failure of his presidency.
10. Poor though it was, the American rescue effort was better than that of Great Britain, Russia or the other Allied nations.
Shalom,
ZWrite
Hey, I’ve done that myself—and I am not faulting you on it. But I am also not going to ignore it.
I agree with you that Christians seem to have taken an inordinate amount of enjoyment out of slaughtering non-Christians…primarily Arabs and Muslims, but also a fair share of Jews.
I also, on several occasions, have mentioned the unreasonable and unjustifiable envy and anger evoked in non-Jews by the fact that Jews are such accomplished achievers…which often serves as an impetus for hatred toward Jews by the envious non-Jews.
But even the Greco-Roman pre-Christian world had lots of issues with Jews. Judeophobia: Attitudes toward the Jews in the Ancient World, a very illuminating book on pre-Christians antagonism toward Jews by Peter Schafer, discusses this in great detail.
Many scholars claim that the so-called exodus of the Jews from Egypt, far from being an escape from slavery and an accomplishment of the god of the Jews, was simply an expulsion from Egypt that Pharaoh ordered to be rid of them.
The “history of the early Hebrew people” parts of the Bible tells us that the Jews did not get along with any of the surrounding peoples. They were almost constantly at war with everyone else in the area.
The Romans considered the Jews to be among the most troublesome people in the empire…not because they rebelled against Roman authority but because they bickered among themselves so much. An assignment to Palestine was one of the most unwelcome assignments a Roman politician or soldier could get.
(All people in the empire rebelled to one degree or another—with the people of the British Isles the greatest pain in the butt in that regard.)
So all of those people had trouble when Jews were in the mix…and none were influenced by Christian intolerance.
The Jews have not gotten along with anybody…nor has anybody ever gotten along with the Jews. (Possible exceptions: Moorish Spain, where Jews were treated very respectfully by Muslims—and pre-Israel Palestine, where Jews and Arabs got along fine until the state of Israel was declared.)
Since you have explained away the last 2000 years without assigning any fault for the problem on Jews, can you give any explanation for the 1500 years before that without faulting Jews also?
"The Jews have not gotten along with anybody…nor has anybody ever gotten along with the Jews."
That's total BS. The Jews have never bothered anyone. They've been resented, persecuted, and murdered because they refused to assimilate to the dominant culture. That's why the Greeks tried to suppress them and the Romans tried to suppress them, too. That's what they did in those days to people who wouldn't knuckle under.
Consider for a moment, Frank, that essentially no group of people, from the ancient Egyptians, Hittites, Assyrians, etc. to the ancient Greeks, Romans, Scythians, etc. have survived to this day. That's because they were wiped off the map, not because they didn't irritate anyone.
Frank, have you ever heard of the concept of "blaming the victim?" You should look into it, because that is exactly what you are doing.
"WYMAN’S 10 CONCLUSIONS"
Thank you so much for your posts. I am saddened that so many basically good hearted people are so easily fooled by Holocaust revisionists and Palestinian propagandists.
And there is the reason there will never be peace in the Middle East...because too many Jews are in denial!
I am not blaming the victim, Amy.
I am trying very, very hard to wake you up to reality!
"I am trying very, very hard to wake you up to reality!"
Give it up, Frank. You aren't going to bully me into changing my mind. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is longstanding and complex. Jewish history and the anti-Semitism are 3000 years old, and equally complex. You have a very poor grasp of the basic facts, and keep repeating anti-Semitic propaganda. You may not personally be anti-Semitic (no doubt some of your best friends are Jewish), but it is anti-Semitic propaganda just the same.
Totally blameless? No one is totally blameless, but many of the problems in the Middle East were created by the British, the League of Nations and the UN, yet no one is addressing the folly of drawing lines on a map...
Religious bigotry is rife in all the Abrahamic religions...and I can't think of a single nation that didn't think itself the center of the universe and everyone else as beneath them.
There wasn't a week without at least one Kassam, often more, since Israel left Gaza.
"The UN, since the "children" won't stop fighting, MUST step in, act "in loco parentis" and IMPOSE peace in the area."
You may feel better by writing that, but it makes no sense. There have been more than 145 wars fought since the inception of the UN. It couldn't stop any of them. Nor does it seem able to stop the slaughter in Darfur, arguably the most pressing humanitarian crisis of our time. Why would you think that the UN could do anything in the Middle East?
Dr. Tuteur has won this particular debate by asking questions which NONE of you could actually answer.
"asking questions which NONE of you could actually answer. "
Perhaps the most disheartening aspect is that no one was embarrassed that they couldn't answer, and, indeed, most people appeared to consider the answers irrelevant.
Opps! Is that also a personal attack upon you? Goodness gracious!
I believe that she was saying that people often (may) feel better by invoking the suppossed power and authority (you, for example, give it parental authority over nations as over "children") of the United Nations.
Her points were about the total ineffectiveness of that organization, and I will only call it an "organization" as it has shown totally NO authority, or ability even, to prevent, negotiate or affect any peace ANYWHERE in the world! The shameful rape of women and very young girls in some parts by "UN Forces" has been glossed over and ignored by those who want it to be much more than it is or even ever can be at this point in time. Those who "may feel better" imaginging UN direction or leadership. In short "wishful thinking"
which may indeed "make (us) feel better" but WON"T HELP ANYTHING!
No, I am not being Boltonesque here just trying to state that Dr. Tuteur was correct and her comments on the UN valid.
And Larry, she was NOT making a personal or snide remark to you or about you...good grief!
scared grandma is right. I agree with her.
(i hope that you do not consider the evacuation of gaza by israel as "proof" that de-occupation fails. the fact that israel controls gaza's borders, has had a year long blockade that prevents the movement of goods and people across the border, and continues to deny journalists entry into gaza, shows that even if you remove all the prison guards, if you lock the doors behind you, the prisoners are still in prison.)
"imagine if israel ended the occupation of the west bank and gaza by returning to the 1967 borders and allowing palestine to become an independent state with full control of borders and internal affairs."
Okay, tell us. What would happen then? The Palestinians would simply give up the demand for the entire country of Israel?
i just don't see how continuing a brutal occupation is more beneficial to israeli security than ending the occupation that is cited by most palestinians as the reason for their opposition.
in addition, the 60% unemployment rate, destroyed economy, lack of any police/military training, poor schooling, and overall lack of infrastructure would make any future palestinian state a pathetic adversary for israel. i think many unequivocal supporters of israel have not been able to accept that israel now has an incredibly advanced and powerful military and that the impoverished and weak states around it (including a potential palestinian state) are not existential threats.
First of all, you didn't answer the question. You asked us to imagine what would happen if Israel pursued particular actions. Now you are obligated to tell us what YOU think would happen.
"many unequivocal supporters of israel have not been able to accept that israel now has an incredibly advanced and powerful military and that the impoverished and weak states around it (including a potential palestinian state) are not existential threats."
Why do supporters of the Palestinians treat them like little children or idiots? Why don't they feel that they owe them a modicum of respect and believe what they say? If they are not an existential threat, it is not from lack of trying. It is from the repeated devastating blows that the Israelis inflict that prevent them from becoming the existential threat they wish to be. Why do you treat them like children who can't be held responsible for their own behavior and their own statements?
i also think that you assume that the statements of some palestinians represent them all. you also assume that the goal of intifada is destruction of israel instead of liberation from the occupation.
this is from an interesting article in the (british) times from a few days ago:
"Palestinians did not vote for Hamas because it was dedicated to the destruction of the state of Israel or because it had been responsible for waves of suicide bombings that had killed Israeli citizens. They voted for Hamas because they thought that Fatah, the party of the rejected Government, had failed them. Despite renouncing violence and recognising the state of Israel Fatah had not achieved a Palestinian state. It is crucial to know this to understand the supposed rejectionist position of Hamas. It won't recognise Israel or renounce the right to resist until it is sure of the world's commitment to a just solution to the Palestinian issue."
(http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5420584.ece)
i don't agree with everything in that piece, but the paragraph above is correct.
but i believe i've made my point. thanks for the discussion.
Just wanted to add a note of support, if you're still reading this. I'm fairly new to OS and what I've read here lately is truly both offensive and frightening. Amy, you seem to be the most active blogger her in support of Israel (I know there are others) and I can't believe the amount of hateful viritrol you are getting for it. I don't agree with everything you say but you certainly have the right to say it And I don't think there's anything asking people to justify their words; how else are you supposed to have a discussion? But the amount of nastiness and yes, hatred I've read is incredible. I myself made the 'mistake' of asking for clarification of a very dubious comment on another post and was subjected to a smaller amount of the same. Thank you and keep posting your opinions.
There is a true anti-Israel blending into anti-Semetic strand of viritrol on this board, in addition to the posting of many incorrect facts. It's obvious that many posters don't realize the vast amount of identification with and support for Israel among Jews, even if they don't support every one of her actions. There is no recognition of the fact that one of the most important tenents of Judaism is a return to the land that was never abandoned by the Jews, that always had a Jewish presence, and was always considered to be Jewish land. (At least that's what I remember learning in Hebrew School and say when reading prayers). Nor is there any recognition of the many, many attempts that Israel has made for peace, only to be rebuffed time and time again by those who mean to destroy her. You responses to those who villify and condemn Israel, while supporting the very people who would happily kill not only Israelis but many of the anti-Israeli posters themseles, are excellent. I'm not sure how much I want to remain on OS - I'm pretty turned off right now - but thank you for being here. And I mean that to the other knowledgeable posters as well, including those who may disagree with Israel but are least willing to discuss their opinions without resorting to name-calling.
Thanks and God Bless.
"And I don't think there's anything asking people to justify their words; how else are you supposed to have a discussion?"
Thanks for the support.
I saw that you got hammered on another thread for daring to ask someone to support her claim with facts. Evidently, the two most offensive behaviors on OS are presenting facts to support your point of view and asking someone to present facts to support theirs.
It is rather daunting, but I take comfort from the fact that most of their anger comes from being embarrassed. They can't marshal any facts to support their arguments and they know it.
While I am sickened by the death of children at the hands of the goyem/Zionists particularly I am more sickened personally by what the reactionary segment of the world Jewish population, as exemplified by Israel, has done to the reputation of the larger group.
Jewish Voice for Peace is an important organization.
Dr. Tuteur ~ leave the memory of John Lennon be what it is and stick to medicine.